the history of WEBSTER HALL (soon to be a landmark?)

"I think the article also says that Webster Hall's current owner Unity Gallega is AGAINST landmark designation for the building. Am I reading that right?"

If a building is landmark, it becomes increasingly difficult (perhaps impossible) to make any modifications to the existing structure. The building owners will not be able to do what they want with the building they rightfully own.

Only show I went to at the Ritz: Overkill/Leeway/Meliah Rage/Nevermore sometime in '88-'89.

Doesn't surprise me that anyone currently involved with that place is against it.

thats right - landmark designation also severely limits the ways the owners can use the space, as well as prohibiting construction/ modification.

anonymous 1:41 I went to that show, that was the show where the skinheads were attacking the metal heads after the show on the corner, right? And James Hetfield of Metallica was there for the encore.

btw where were they when people were seeking landmark status for CB-GB's, which had one of the oldest(if not THE oldest) wooden bars in the city, dating from 1800s?

Landmarks does not limit the way you can USE a building, it just regulates changes to the building's exterior, unless they are separately designating the interior...

The Fillmore East/The Palladium/CBGB's/etc.
r.i.p.

And now they want to landmark Webster Hall?

the only reason Webster Hall is even still standing is becasuse NYU hasn't bought the property yet.

Fuck Webster Hall... Long Live The RITZ!

The nightclub scenes in Raging Bull were filmed in Webster Hall. I wonder if the sound sucked then, as well.

we told the guy to turn down the bass, but he just wouldn't listen.

this place should get shitmark status.

I don't get the bitching about the sound at WH. I saw Spoon there and was mighty impressed by the sound. The sound at CBGB sucked. The sound at the Ritz sucked too. Now I bet if they closed Webster Hall everyone would be singing the same song.
To the idiot who mentioned landmarking CBGB- have you ever noticed the building. It was probably built in the 1960's. You cant landmark furniture.
If compared to say, Nokia Times Square Theatre or that Club Exit Terminal Shithole, Webster Hall kicks ass.

webster hall is sweet

"anonymous 1:41 I went to that show, that was the show where the skinheads were attacking the metal heads after the show on the corner, right? And James Hetfield of Metallica was there for the encore."

I remember a fight where the pizza place still is a block away, but didn't stick around to notice. The skin/metalhead fights were bad back then, I remember getting my ass kicked during CBGB matinees because I had long hair.

Glad to see a few old school NYCers here. We remember NYC before hipsters ruined neighborhoods like the East Village, LES, Williamsburg, Astoria, etc...

2 of the loudest shows I ever attended were there...Dinosaur, Jr 1989 and My Bloody Valentine 1991. MBV probably won. Ears rang for a week.

Both bands figured out how to get around the shitty sound - make everyone go deaf

try blaming the sound guy not the venue

>>"Glad to see a few old school NYCers here. We remember NYC before hipsters ruined neighborhoods like the East Village, LES, Williamsburg, Astoria, etc..."

god i hate these types of comments. HATE them. you don't realize it, but you sound as shitty and obnoxious as the hipsters you resent so much. the city grows and moves and adapts and changes and you deal with it by finding new and exciting things - not bemoaning hipsters or complaining about gentrification. it's so lazy and empty to do that.

Happy Hanukkah everyone!

Anon 3:53: Webster Hall and The Ritz are the same thing.

Anon 4:16: If you are talking about St Marks Pizza, it isn't there any more.

"...hate these types of comments. HATE them. you don't realize it, but you sound as shitty and obnoxious as the hipsters you resent so much. the city grows and moves and adapts and changes and you deal with it by finding new and exciting things - not bemoaning hipsters or complaining about gentrification. it's so lazy and empty to do that."

And you sound exactly like a bullshit hipster who refuses to acknowledge that they missed out on when this City actually was cool as shit, before the City "grew" and "moved" and "adapted" to and for a bunch of whiny suburban and middle American brats who's parents paid for them to come here and MAKE the city lazy and empty.

Someone who complains about people complaining about gentrification is obviously someone who is part of the problem.

Rampant and unstoppable gentrification has sucked the lifeblood out of this CIty and anyone who thinks that it is lazy and empty to complain about the fun, edge and soul of a City that's being wiped out is obviously a very empty and lazy person themselves. Clearly you weren't here when things were great before people like you came and destroyed the way of life that existed here forever. Nor do you care, as long as you are as comfortable here as you were back wherever you came from.

Which is where you should go back to.

loudest show ever at thte Ritz: Ramones mid 80's.

RE: Ramones Mid-80's-

That the show where some guy dived off of the balcony into the crowd?

adapting and moving and growing are great things if they are good. Unfortunately what has happened to the Lower East Side isn't good. It sucks. The L.E.S. is turning into a suburban neighborhood by day and a frat party by night.

Long Live the 70's/80's NYC. It's the whole reason that these shmucks are moving into this neighborhood now anyway.

They think it's cool to move into a neighborhood that was cool twenty years ago, once it is all cleaned up and safe for them and has completely lost it's edge.

Actually someone who complains about someone complaining about people complaining about gentrification is obviously someone who is part of the problem.

jesus, everyone get over yourselves, "it's you people who cause the problems" "its you people who bitch about the problem that are just as bad" I know I'm no better for bitching about bitching, but christ what self-important drivel on both sides, get a fucking life.

"adapting and moving and growing are great things if they are good. Unfortunately what has happened to the Lower East Side isn't good. It sucks. The L.E.S. is turning into a suburban neighborhood by day and a frat party by night.

Long Live the 70's/80's NYC. It's the whole reason that these shmucks are moving into this neighborhood now anyway.

They think it's cool to move into a neighborhood that was cool twenty years ago, once it is all cleaned up and safe for them and has completely lost it's edge."

If misguided myopics like you were what made it so great, I'm glad to have missed out.

We all have so much trouble accepting the present. . .

When did hipster become a dirty word? I am going to start referring to myself as one so I can be hated like a skinhead in the early 90's.
I've only lived here since '98 but that being said I don't feel like I killed Williamsburg. I moved there because I could afford it. There were great loft parties back then but there were no music venues. Now theres a lot of good ones.
I wold imagine there were people in 1988 bitching about how trendy punk had become and how much more real the 70's CBGB scene was.
It's a sad sort of "glory days" syndrome that i don't find to be very punk or hip at all. It's called nostalgia. It's been around for a long time. I hope these young hipsters can avoid it.

Additionally, who found more enjoyment in these 'lost neighborhoods', people who lived here 30 years ago, or people who live here today? If you can't answer that question, then just what makes a place 'cool'?

What really counts here? How are we measuring anything?

I remember in college freshman year, the seniors saying how much greater the school was when they were freshmen and how it had just declined and gotten less cool over the years. I felt the same way when I left. Humans are so boring, repetitive, and predictable.

"I wold imagine there were people in 1988 bitching about how trendy punk had become and how much more real the 70's CBGB scene was."

This comment proves how clueless you are. Punk was anything but trendy in 1988. And the 70's CBGB punk scene was completely different from the 80's CBGB hardcore scene. Two scenes that you obviously know equally NOTHING about at all.

But I'm glad you have your 2007 scene. Oh wait a minute.... what scene?

Holy crap people...get over your self-important bullshit.

Questions and answers:

"Additionally, who found more enjoyment in these 'lost neighborhoods', people who lived here 30 years ago, or people who live here today?"

People who lived here 30 years ago found WAY more enjoyment. No contest. Game Over. And if you don't think so, your fooling yourself to make yourself feel better.

Young people and artists and musicians 30 years ago who were choosing to live in squalor in the downtown arts community were part of a major cultural movement and true honest outsiders and part of a larger bonifide underground community. Now stockbrokers are purposfully buying into these neighborhoods for the cool factor decades after the party is over. You tell me who had more fun... musicians and artists partying in a community where no authorutty was paying attention or cared, or businesspeople hanging out after work at the wine bar in a City where noise complaints are becomiong incresingly common?

" If you can't answer that question, then just what makes a place 'cool'?"

I just did answer that question.

What really counts here? How are we measuring anything? See answer number one.

I remember in college freshman year, the seniors saying how much greater the school was when they were freshmen and how it had just declined and gotten less cool over the years. I felt the same way when I left. Humans are so boring, repetitive, and predictable.

Some are, some aren't. Unfortunatley the kind of people you went to college with have moved into and killed NYC. You're one of them.

"If misguided myopics like you were what made it so great, I'm glad to have missed out.

We all have so much trouble accepting the present. . . "

I'm glad you missed out too.

And I have no trouble accepting that the present is boring and sucky.

Sorry,... you lose.

"We all have so much trouble accepting the present. . . "

True... but some also have trouble accepting the past, and acknowledging that they missed the party.

annoyed at what happened to downtown and expressing fond feelings for the "good ol' days" is not so much nostalgia as anger over the destruction of a culture by an army of fools.

"When did hipster become a dirty word?"

When they started paying $50 for an "ironic"
t shirt of a band that could have been seen live in concert ten years earlier for ten bucks.

That's when.

"Unfortunatley the kind of people you went to college with have moved into and killed NYC. You're one of them."

actually we killed you and made your present the past: something to cherish, always out of reach. i'd be teary-eyed and vengeful myself.

Cheer up, gentrification is gonna suffer a setback with the upcoming recession.

fuck hannakah i need some weed.

To the defensive youngsters: This may not be the best forum, but what's being alluded to is perhaps the decimation of Manhattan's ability to support and develop artists, not just give a home to established and moneyed galleries and venues hosting touring bands that can guarantee a turnout. True, there are (alien to an "older" person like me) many more venues these days, and even stranger is that the majority are in Brooklyn. We used to be able to count them on one hand. I guess that's a testament to the city still or even more being a fun place full of culture and diversity. And I'm proud of being some small part of that. But the problem lies, and nowhere as much as in NYC, when all the entranced newcomers create an economic flurry up behind them. I love bars and restaurants as much as the next guy - tho I still love the cheap and character laden places I always did and the newer ethnic ones that have followed. But, then the irony is that the artists that made the place great are forced out, and eventually the middle class too (that means you, shithead). Hell, maybe down the road the City can become the same "flavorful" shithole it was in the 70s. Maybe, we'll have a Mercer Arts Center, Max's, CBs, Mudd Club, Hurrah again someday in this cycle. But, Wsburg sure happened faster than that and has certainly gone way beyond. Bushwick already has trendy restaurants, around the same time it's happening on the Bowery. So much for CB's and Punk Rock.

And frankly, nothing gets much better for the poor people. They get chased out too, or remain stuck.

Anyway, getting back on track, talking music, I always liked the Ritz/WH (mostly went in the Ritz days). Sure, it could attract the then labeled "bridge and tunnel" crowd looking to date and dance - like some other larger places the Ritz got by attracting different crowds on different nights (as with Danceteria, Peppermint Lounge, etc). But, contrary to what many have posted here the sound was frequently good and sometimes great. So, unlike say Warsaw where there's little a sound person/company can do to improve the room (The Sonics benefited from the gymnasium vibe), Ritz/WH sound was up to the quality of the gear and the talent of the staff and performer.

All that being said I have very fond memories of (the stuff I CAN remember) great Iggy shows, Meat Puppets (can't remember what tour), Suicide and Material for a Ze Records show, Slayer/Venom/Exodus (?), the Residents, Glenn Branca on a Monday or Tuesday that was astoundingly beautiful and loud and shut down after intermission in deference to the B&T types, and more recently, an astonishing and perfect SOUNDING Melvins show from about 4/5 years ago.

What I didn't see and regret much: Ramones, Guns n Roses, and the in/famous PIL show.

And the structure, with it's inherent history, is gorgeous inside and out. You just have to know where to look.

Sure, artists sprang up here, but this is where you come to sell out. This is where the money is, always has been. The cafe's were always trendy, the rents have always been too high and those that cant make it go home with debt and some good stories. Gentrification will come full circle soon enough and I will be at the front of the pack when the punks retake St. Marks and GG Allins ghost shits on every last Ibanker living in Alphabet City.

wow man this thread has grown, to the original poster. How the fuck did you remember the opening bands though? I think I might know you. What's your first name?

Shows that come to mind at the Ritz- Motorhead w/ManOWar(my hearing never recovered from that show that is the truth, permanent damage), and Danzig his first solo tour. Also someone said CB's sound sucked? I thought that was a great sounding space.

I don't want to get into the whole gentrification debate, but I would just say it sucks when your old favorite store or restaurants have to close because they can't pay the rent. And I wish there was more affordable housing being built. Im not talking some tick tack shit 40 units, theres like 2 million people in NYC who can't afford a decent place to live, so they have to room with someone, basement apts all that crap. It's scary.

landmark status yes. if that's what it takes to keep venues open in this godforsaken city, so be it.

Whiny little yuppies posing the hipster pose. Different generation different uniform. Cool is dead, PBR still sucks, and beards itch.
Y'knowhat folks, there is some serious shit going down in front of your noses, and this is what you vent on. I pity the future.

I used to sell pins at The Ritz ands so attended plenty of shows. Charlie Martin, the original CBGB sound guy, did the sound. I used to hang out in the soundbooth and it was pleasure to watch, and listen, to him work. He used to talk about achieving "the loop" that's when the sound sounds so good to the band and the crowd the music becomes transcendent.

The loudest show there, without doubt, was The Swans, with their soundguy Jack Balchin at the controls. I remember seeing the bouncers fleeing down the stairs unable to take it despite earplugs!

"I used to sell pins at The Ritz ands so attended plenty of shows."

I used to buy your pins at The Ritz, Roseland and City Gardens.

I'm sorry to be too young to have lived in New York in the 70s and 80s. I asked, but my mommy wouldn't let me. Next time I'll get born earlier.

please. new york was much cooler in the late 1950's and early 1960's. all you posers came in during the 1970's and ruined it. way to go.

9:24 -- HA! Exactly!

I love(ed) NYC, but I have advice to all those who whine incessantly: Just shut up and leave already! Do some research -- find out what's "cool" in your book, regarding your interests (advice: do not limit yourself to the US), and move there.

There's a whole wide world out there folks.

If things suck so bad here, move on already.

Anon: 9:30: "Humans are so boring, repetitive, and predictable."

Brookyln Vegan commenters have spoken: Humans have jumped the shark.

Regardless of how things have changed for the worse according to those who “know,” NYC remains a fabled wonderland of opportunity, cultural enrichment, and fun people doin’ stuff to all those from boring small towns. People growing up in the burbs still dream of coming here and experiencing something other than the monotony of places that have one or two venues and a handful of cool bars. This city may have gone to shit in the eyes of people who helped to establish its awesomeness, but folks will flock here either way. Nostalgia is a dangerous mistress – let’s do something about it already if we think this place sucks. Don’t buy that $50 T-shirt.

"I'm sorry to be too young to have lived in New York in the 70s and 80s. I asked, but my mommy wouldn't let me. Next time I'll get born earlier."

It's got nothing to with age. I missed the 70s punk scene too, but I understand exactly why people are so upset at what gentrification has done. There used to be places in Manhattan where young artists, musicians, and writers could afford to live. Those places are gone now. That's a big loss for the city. And if the idea of an actual community of artists is so foreign to you that you don't understand just how big a loss this has been for NY, then I actually feel bad for you.

Why does what someone do for a career entitle them to live in the city? I've met plenty of boring and self-absorbed artists. I've met plenty of boring and self-absorbed bankers. Being an artist doesn't automatically make you an asset to the culture of a city or the least bit "interesting". It's who you are as a person and we are all too quick to judge a book by its cover.

No matter what you choose as a profession, if you are good enough, you'll be rewarded financially. Not that money is what it's all about, but it gives you a place to live in the city.

As for the people that "can't make it" in the city...it's Darwinism. It happens in every industry, art, entertainment, hedge funds, etc. It's part of what makes New York great, we have the cream of the crop across every field. Some of the best writers, performers, musicians, titans of industry, math geniuses, etc live here. Try talking to people outside your circle next time you're out and you might meet some interesting people.

Personally, I like not worrying about getting mugged on the street like I did in the late 80's.

For people who think everything sucks now, c'mon. Life is what you make it. Enjoy being.

do you old-timers miss the junkies shooting up in the park and crack/pcp heads robbing you in the streets too?

"No matter what you choose as a profession, if you are good enough, you'll be rewarded financially."

BULL$HIT

"Why does what someone do for a career entitle them to live in the city? I've met plenty of boring and self-absorbed artists. I've met plenty of boring and self-absorbed bankers. Being an artist doesn't automatically make you an asset to the culture of a city or the least bit "interesting". It's who you are as a person and we are all too quick to judge a book by its cover. "

It's got nothing to do with judging individual people based on what they do for a living. (Yes, I know plenty of artists who are pompous bores.) The problem isn't individual artists or individual bankers. And the problem isn't that all bankers are somehow "boring" or "uncool" - I know plenty of perfectly interesting people who work in finance. The problem is the loss of anywhere artists can gather as a community. Most art doesn't happen in a vaccuum - artists of all kinds benifit from having peers to bounce ideas off of and be inspired by. Take away that community and you take away a valuable resource. Sometimes less-than-great artists stumble upon great ideas, which other artists can take and use as the basis for new, exciting work. That's the benifit of having a large group of artists around in one particular city. So even if you have "succeeded" in our "Darwinian" NY, you are still missing out on something. I for one have always valued NY's cultural and artistic legacy - and I honestly think that the cultural life of this city has been diminished.
It's not about wanting to somehow bring back the 1970s or the 1980s, it's about regretting the way NY (especially Manhattan) really has nowhere for young, struggling artists to live in a community.
Of course people have the right to live wherever they want - but I have the right to miss the people that have been squeezed out by all the kids who've moved in.
Yes, I like safe streets too. But the artistic and creative culture of the city has suffered in the last 10 years. It just has. And I regret that. I'm suprised you don't.

"No matter what you choose as a profession, if you are good enough, you'll be rewarded financially."

Really? So if someone is a really good social worker/teacher/cop/writer, they'll be rewarded financially? Come on, you know that's not true. To really believe that requires a stunning lack of observational skills, or shows that you don't associate with people in the middle class. When was the last time you heard about a social worker being able to rent (or even better, buy) a place in Manhattan? Honestly, you have to wonder about a city that prices out someone making 50K a year. What's sad is that some people don't realize that a city full of i-bankers is a really crappy prospect.

One of my best friends is a social worker who lives in the West Village.

One of my best friends is a social worker who lives in the West Village.

One of my best friends is a TRUSTFUNDER social worker who lives in the West Village.

RIP Ike Turner
&
One of my best friends is married to a corporate lawyer and lives in the West Village and is a social worker!

Really, shouldn't this thread be about... what bands you saw at the Ritz?

Grasped through the haze of long-forgotten memories: the Pretenders, the Jam (got autographs after the show), Psychedelic Furs, Culture Club, Frankie Goes To Hollywood and the Replacements. Also saw Bjork around '92 when it first became Webster Hall.

Also saw XTC around '81 and the Black Sea album. My buddy and I were standing around the balcony area prior to the show, when I looked up and saw all of XTC trooping by on the way to the dressing room. I put a big "how ya doin'?" slap on the shoulder of Andy Partridge as he passed. He stopped and turned and gave me the look-of-death - I'm surprised he didn't grab my throat. Some years later I would read about how Partridge hated touring and suffered stage fright and didn't take kindly to punters slapping him on the back. Oh, XTC played a brilliant show that night.

The social worker living in the West Village with a corporate lawyer spouse was rewarded financially for being a really good social worker, right? Or did the social worker just marry someone with money? Hmmm, what's the answer? A trustfunder social worker living in the West Village (why do they all live in the west village?) was rewarded financially for being a really good social worker too, right? And it wasn't just they were lucky enough to have family with money.

"Anon 4:16: If you are talking about St Marks Pizza, it isn't there any more."

No, I am talking about the place on 1st ave. Maybe the place is different, but it still is a pizza place.

"god i hate these types of comments. HATE them. you don't realize it, but you sound as shitty and obnoxious as the hipsters you resent so much. the city grows and moves and adapts and changes and you deal with it by finding new and exciting things - not bemoaning hipsters or complaining about gentrification. it's so lazy and empty to do that."

Let me guess, you just moved here. Just moved as in anytime during the Giuliani or Bloomberg. If you didn't experience NYC before gentrification, you have no right to pass judgement. YOUR OPINION IS NOT VALID. I saw the city pre and post Giuliani, the city before YOU moved here, and let's face it, it was better before. Sure people like to talk about crime, but it was easy to avoid it. The only crime any of my family or friends experience throughout the entire '80s was a broken car window.

NYC was better before you moved here. Yes, NYC changes all time time, but this time, NYC is becoming like the rest of America. Just like back home. You wanted NYC but with the convinience of Ohio.

". Just like back home. You wanted NYC but with the convinience of Ohio."

Worse, they still want Ohio, they just want it to come with a New York address.

"No matter what you choose as a profession, if you are good enough, you'll be rewarded financially."

So by this logic, you are implying that the most financially rewarded artists are therefore and naturally the best artists?

Hah!

The world is FULL of talented creative imaginitive dedicated hard working driven artists, musicians, writers, etc. who can't get a break, while no-talent uncreative cookie cutter sub-intelligent borderline illiterate morons who work the creative fileds while calling themselves "artists" reap in the dough like there's no tomorrow.

How many real talented singers can't seem to make ends meet while Britney Spears rakes in MILLIONS?

this thread makes me feel like old people are really mean. i'm sorry if i've done anything to hurt you. i just want to be happy. i hope i can make you happy someday.

yours,
young person getting older

Spin's 20th Anniversary issue has interviews with their list of the 20 greatest innovators of the last 20 years. I liked the Ian MacKaye interview. Interesting stuff on the whole Nike controversy and not talking to Spin for 10 years. Here's one of the questions with Mr. MacKaye's reply...

Spin: So you have no nostalgia for alternative rock's heyday?
No, I'm not nostalgic for that period at all. I'm not a nostalgic person. I don't think any more or less about '91 than I do about '81; that's just the number that was on the year. you have to understand, I'm not an anniversary-issue guy. I could give a fuck about that. What's important about Spin is what it's doing now. What you should do is put U.S. OUT OF IRAQ on your cover and just declare it, so other people who know and feel in their hearts that this war is wrong don't have to feel so lonely and isolated. That's more interesting to me. I don't think, "Oh, those were the heydays." That's just boring. You can only imagine how many people come up to me and talk about "back in the day." The fact is, the most imporant music in the world is the music being made right now, because it's the only thing that has a chance of changing things.

Yeh Swans was a good night out. I don't remember a fing !!