FUCK!

i liked this part: Eugene Mirman (pronounced by the Board "MEER-min") who ended his testimonial by asking the angered but wealthy residents of Park Slope, "Can I borrow some money?"

wtf? what happened to Park Slope? you can't live on that block and not expect some noise. these annoying ibanker yuppies move in and expect it to be as quiet as the Financial District. jackasses.

Terrible sightlines at Union Hall, but any venue is better than no venue.

How is the Gowanus location coming along?

Complete Bullshit. CB6 can gargle my balls.

This is the cancer that is killing NYC.

CB4 > CB6

Straight Outta Locash
A crazy mothafucka named Gusto
I fucked ya wife, cause the bitch is a big hoe
I fucked ya sister, I fucked ya cat
I would have fucked ya mom but the bitch is too fat!
When I'm in ya neighborhood, ya betta dig a moat
cause I'm comin to slit... ya motherfuckin throat!
Blood is drippin, I'm not slippin
Bitches panties, is what I'm rippin
Rollin faster than a motherfuckin dirt bike
Never met a piece of pussy that I didn't like
Like to eat it, like to suck it
Take a shit... in a bucket; Straight Outta Locash!!!

Comin straight out of Locash,
a crazy motherfucker named Dead Mike
So get ready cause you're goin for a long hike
off a cliff, I'm drivin you over
Now ya dead with ya fo' leaf clover
Float like a cannonball, sting like a shark
I'm the nigga waitin for you in the dark
Waitin to rob you, waitin to beat you
A bullet in ya head is how I greet you (whassup nigga?)
A villain with a hat, and it's like that
I tied yo' moms to a motherfuckin train track
Flat on her back, I give her some crack
It's ten o'clock - DO YOU KNOW WHERE YO MOMS IS AT?
At my house (doin what?) wipin her ass
She had to move... STRAIGHT OUTTA LOCASH!!!

It is a CITY after all!

Those rich slopers are idiots.

god forbid union hall closes.. oh, no! GOD FORBID mirman has another drink!

"Those rich slopers are idiots."

This situation is the same anywhere in NYC.

herbert probably works for Southpaw.

The CB6 member who pushed the vote through just so happens to own the Brazen Head...which competes with Union Hall's sister bar Floyd on Atlantic Avenue. So once again the vocal minority pushes something through that reeks of conflict of interest.

I wonder if staying open till 2 would make a difference. Maybe that could be a compromise instead of closing.

I think it's pretty insane that noise complaints could force a bar to close. I don't walk by that area much at 3 or 4 in the morning, but I do think it's disgusting what Brooklyn is turning into. It's NYC. It's loud.

Dispite what people who bought million dollar 1 bedroom apartments think, Park Slope is not the suburbs. There is going to be noise.

the cancer that is killing nyc is people not respecting other folks' need to sleep. it's called noise pollution. in this case it's a bar/venue. in most cases it is people lampin' and blasting their car stereo, or playing basketball on the street 24/7. when it comes down to getting no sleep it is all the same, no matter whether one has money or not. the sorry soul not understanding this simple concept, that's who is the IDIOT.

i love how everyone who can afford a nice place to live is an 'ibanker.'

terrible how we actually have brains and dont care to live in shitholes like bushwick and crown heights.

Ever heard of earplugs? I use 'em every night. Sleep like a baby. I expect cities to be noisy. I'd be fucking pissed if I was in the suburbs and I had a bunch of loud drunks smoking and pissing on my street, but I chose not to live in the suburbs. So, basically, fuck you. Obviously lack of respect is not a cancer killing NYC, because it's been one of the mainstays of it's population since fucking Dutch times. Eat a bowl of fuck, yuppie. And MOVE.

"wtf? what happened to Park Slope? you can't live on that block and not expect some noise. these annoying ibanker yuppies move in and expect it to be as quiet as the Financial District. jackasses."

The venue's pretty new - open for almost 2 years. There was not this amount of noise on that block before it opened. I bet many of the people complaining lived there before then, so I can see why it would affect them.

Sure, tell the people who've lived on the block for DECADES to move. Yeah, fuck them! They ain't yuppies but let's call 'em that anyway! Who cares about noise, right? Who cares about drunk assholes at 3 a.m. yelling in the neighborhood? They're not the problem! The problem is the people being woekn up late at night! Fuck 'em!!!

I've been here since the good old days, and to be honest I prefer the noise of the little indie rock rock rich kids to the gunshots of peurto rican junkies, but I guess there's just no pleasing some people.

anon 12:14
you crack me up. are you living in some well pampered neighborhood? earplugs? are you fucking kidding me you joker. let's see how you do living in the bronx, fordham, davidson ave for a year or 2. earplugs won't do shit for you. why am I even talking to you anonymous scum..

Homeboy! I grew up on Bainbridge Ave, but I've been living on the Lower East Side for about 20 years. Ludlow and Orchard. It gets a little noisy. Earplugs help.

MOVE TO THE FUCKING SUBURBS, YOU ASSHOLES. WE DON'T NEED THE HATERS AND THE JACKED-UP RENT.

Punk rock needs to return to this city and start taking on these people. Park Slope has become this locus of bland liberalism based on assimilation, automatic thinking, and hostility towards anything challenging to mainstream white-liberal tastes (see stuffwhitepeoplelike.org). Of course, that's increasingly true for this city as a whole.

Who is setting this ridiculous agenda? And how do we disrupt it?

Anon 12:48, you are sooooooo fucking full of shit!!! I've lived on Union btw 5th and 6th for twenty years I never heard fuckin' gunshots from "puerto rican junkies." Maybe past 10th Street by 4th Ave. but not in my neck of the woods. Bullshit!!!

Is it true that the leader of the anti-UH'ers gets drunk and calls 911 on them? If so, he should be arrested or at least lambasted by his neighbors for causing such chaos. From what I know, Union Hall has never been cited for any noise problems, overcrowding, or anything. The facts are there. Sounds like a witchhunt but some deepl distrubed lonely old man.

I think un:art:ig is whats wrong with this city.

A city is noisy. Expect noise. Common sense people. Learn to live with it. And if you can't learn to live with it or get used to it. Then you don't belong in a city.

how about this: shut down the bar and keep the venue. is that financially feasible? you'd still have a performance space, but the tools would have to go back to The Gate.

I agree with most commenters: Union and 5th is a busy intersection. Residents should expect noise. Deal with it or move.

erin,

if you do not understand the difference between 'a noisy city' and people robbing you off your sleep on a regular basis in a residential neighborhood then I feel sorry for you. so you would like to live by Darwin's law? Hm, funny. The rich drive out the poor. The loud and disrespectful cunts drive out the ones that have had it. See the similarities?!

I am often awoken in my Park Slope brownstone as early as 5am by the sound of crying babies on the sidewalk outside, sirens from the hospital and firetrucks, horns honking, and children playing in the schoolyard next door and I say why stop at Union Hall - lets ban everything which makes noise immediately! Onward with progress!

"puerto rican junkies" - necessary?

theres alot of Puerto Ricans. They play radios loud sometimes.

OMF!!!!

¡Hacemos mucho ruido atrasado en la noche!

People who don't like noise on Union and 5th need to move. From 7th ave down to 5th (and probably 3rd soon) there are restaurants and bars. Get over it, sell your property for the millions that its worth and move to a stately mansion in montclair. To try and ruin one of the best establisments in Park Slope (and BK for that matter) is really self important and unfair to the thousands of other neighbors who enjoy attending Union Hall on a weekly basis.

yeah, the majority is way in the right here. Grumpy, elitist asssholes should enjoy their neighborhood or move to somewhere more fitting of their lame, cranky lifestyle.

"Union and 5th is a busy intersection. Residents should expect noise. Deal with it or move."

But as much as I like Union Hall, the apologists here just don't get it.

Union Hall is deeper in on Union than most would admit and is right next to—and across the street from—places where people live. Before it existed it was a tile or plumbing warehouse.

I think that nobody has any issues with the noise created during the hours of 9-5, but for some reason the crowds in/around Union Hall ARE louder than most other venues.

220 Fifth is around the corner. Brooklyn Lyceum is a block away on 4th Avenue. Catty Shack a few blocks further down. And then there are places like Great Lakes, Loki, etc. No problems.

Union Hall's problem isn't that it's a bar in a residential neighborhood, but it's a VENUE in a residential neighborhood. Southpaw is not a fair comparison because it's neighbors are mostly businesses that close at night and an empty parking lot across the street.

So you know what, here's what I suggest. Union Hall is simply in a bad location. Relocate to 4th Avenue and nobody would complain. Oh wait, they're doing that in a way by opening a venue deeper in Gowanus? Decent plan.

Union Hall is not in a residential neighborhood! It is in a very mixed neighborhood. It is a hundred feet away from a busy intersection.

Other venues do not have problems because they do not have idiotic neighborhoods. 5th and Union is not residential. It is not the countryside. This is Brooklyn, not Montana.

I think Mirman is right - what will the people do if they close down the only bar in Brooklyn? They'll have to do their limp comedy in the streets!

Anyway, he only showed up at the meeting because he's working on a movie and for the promise of free donuts.

Ferd

"Union Hall is not in a residential neighborhood! It is in a very mixed neighborhood. It is a hundred feet away from a busy intersection."

5th Avenue and Union Street is not residential. But Union Hall is not at the direct corner of 5th and Union; it's deeper in the block and smack dab next to brownstones.

"Other venues do not have problems because they do not have idiotic neighborhoods. 5th and Union is not residential. It is not the countryside."

Other venues are placed in the same so-called "idiotic neighborhoods", but are located in areas that are mainly commercial or have minimal residential use.

"This is Brooklyn, not Montana."

Indeed it is Brooklyn. I was born and raised here. And before this city was what it is today, all rock venues that were smaller were placed in neighborhoods that simply were not residential. CBGB's was in the middle of the restaurant supply stores & bums on the Bowery. Max's Kansas City was at the south end of Park Avenue and was surrounded by office buildings and commercial storefronts. Wetlands was in a part of Tribeca that was basically empty at night.

The idea that someone can just setup a bar in a residential neighborhood and then turn it into a venue after getting setup is a bit nuts.

Here's some advice. I like Union Hall but I think the complaints are valid. 3rd Avenue deeper near Gowanus is quieter and less residential. Move there. Heck, the Brooklyn Lyceum is a waste of space and very mismanaged. If Union Hall would move in there nobody would complain AND it would be an awesome venue.

Your points are not valid if you consider that Union Hall is primarily a bar, and not a concert venue. The audience there to see some small sit-down show that is over by no later than midnight is not the problem. It is the bar patrons that are supposedly the problem (if you listen to the NIMBYs). Are you saying residential neighborhoods never had bars? Park Slope never had bars? Your reasoning is flawed. The venue is not the problem.

Anonymous, I think if you read what I wrote you'd be aware that I know there are bars there. And the main reason I avoid Union Hall on some nights is because it's so unbearably crowded. And that is oftentimes spillover from the bands/shows happening and one crowd of people killing time before the show goes one, or hanging out afterwards.

Therefore I say your points are moot and canard in this light. Aha!

You see there are other bars in the neighborhood. And nobody has issues with them. The ONE bar that is a multi-use venue/bar is an issue.

Move to 4th Avenue or 3rd Avenue and nobody would have any issues.

man, i had the BEST sandwich for lunch today.

Union Hall's performance space holds 92 people. If EVERY SINGLE SHOW is sold out EVERY SINGLE NIGHT and EVERY SINGLE PERSON ran out onto the street right after the show ended (no later than midnight), you would still have NO ARGUMENT. The place is docile, the neighbors are batshit crazy, and it seems to be that Union Hall have had ZERO, count ZERO violations for noise. If I were Union Hall's counsel, I'd start preparing a lawsuit against the neighbors and go on the attack!!

It never fails to amaze me how spoiled rich brats from the suburbs can move into a city and act like they are straigh outta the hood slumming it in Bushwick or Williamsburg and then have the audacity to become irate when people who have lived in Brooklyn for decades are annoyed by the noise coming from their crappy indie rock bands. Please. How many people complaining about the so called yuppies in Park Slope being too sensitive about the noise are actually spoiled rich brats from the 'burbs? Show of hands please.

Most people who actually work for a living and buy homes want to be able to sleep in peace especially if they bough their home prior to a noisy club moving onto the block. I think everybody knows Brooklyn can be loud and most of us can tolerate some noise, but there is a limit and apparently people in that neighborhood think the limit has been reached -- not that the indie rock frat boy trust fund kids would know since they don't sleep near the club in question.

There is nothing, and I mean nothing, worse than a hipster. Grow the fuck up already!

Has anyone considered, and I'm serious here, the mental health of the 3 main complainers? Their histrionics in the CB6 meeting would, I think, warrant some kind of background check to see if they are firing on all pistons, so to speak.

Do hipsters only care about themselves?

if Union Hall gets shut down... I'm going to be riding my Harley past those rich pricks houses repeatedly late at night. Oh... it's fucking loud. I encourage you all to find passive ways to disrupt these self-entitled "neighbors" however possible. Be careful not to get arrested though...

Yeah, really fucking mature -- ride your harley down Union to disturb those "self-entitled" neighbors. Too bad people can't use all of this political energy on something that really matters like feeding the poor, stopping the war, insuring the uninsured . . . . But, no, asshole hipster dipshits put all their narcissistic energy into some bullshit music venue that is located in the middle of a block of homes.

I hope you fall of your Harley and bruise your cock.

isn't everyone who lives in park slop like 28 anyway? i don't understand the problem

Since I don't live on Union I was previously neutral on this subject but after reading the pathetic attempts of people to actually justify a loud music venue located in the midst of a block of brownstones, I am now solidly on the side of the homeowners who want Union Hall shut down.

In response to: "Too bad people can't use all of this political energy on something that really matters like feeding the poor, stopping the war, insuring the uninsured . . . . "

Here's the thing: This is a political issue. Union Hall has hosted many political fundraisers and benefits for worthy causes. At the meeting, a representative of the local tenants rights group, Neighbors Helping Neighbors, said that Union Hall had helped raise $60,000 for his organization--which amounted to one-eighth of the group's annual budget. Union Hall has also hosted benefits for victims of Hurricane Katrina and yes, even for Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn.

Also, as a resident of Park Slope, I think it's my right to defend Union Hall as a cultural institution. Where else around here can you hear a lecture on astrophysics or global warming (for free) one night and see an awesome band the next?

This isn't a battle between yuppies and hipsters. or oldsters vs. youngsters. It's a very small (and ironically noisy) cadre of anti-noise activists vs. a huge number of diverse people in the community that support UH.

Union Hall's positive impact far outweighs any negatives. And yes, it's a political issue. People come to NYC from all over the country and all over the world to experience its art, diversity, and incredible energy. Sapping Park Slope of one of its most energetic and esteemable cultural venues would be retrograde. Should 5th Avenue should go back to being the crime-ridden ghost town that it was 15 years ago? Let's hope not.

"This is a political issue. Union Hall has hosted many political fundraisers and benefits for worthy causes."

Ridiculous. Nothing speaks towards the patronizing tone of hipsters than this. Prior to Union Hall even existing, TONS of other political benefits were held elsewhere in Park Slope. In churches, at the Society for Ethical Culture, and even in *GASP* other bars and venues in/around Park Slope.

Anyone who has lived in Park Slope for any length of time knows that Park Slope is at no shortage for places and venues where one can air out—or support others—political views.

"Should 5th Avenue should go back to being the crime-ridden ghost town that it was 15 years ago? Let's hope not."

This is a straw man argument if there ever was one. It presupposes that Union Hall closing and moving would signal the death of 5th Avenue. This is a hyperbolic at best because prior to Union Hall opening there has ALWAYS been new bars, restaurants and stores opening. There's plenty of live on 5th Avenue that doesn't have to do with Union Hall.

Regarding "Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn" you might want to do some research on Eugene Mirman's & Michael Showalter's relationship with the group. While they did hold a benefit for DDDB, Showalter has a part of his act where he talks about DDDB not being happy with some of his comments in the press about Ratner, the Atlanic Yards Plan and DDDB.

Also—in the case of DDDB—Union Hall is not unique in their having a benefit for DDDB. Practically every bar and venue has held a DDDB benefit over the years.

Like I said before I like Union Hall, but if the owners left, sold the building and moved 1-2 blocks into Gowanus that would solve all issues. You get the same venue—maybe even larger—and it's not in the middle of a block of homes. Everyone wins!

In response to Jack:

#1: Thanks for calling me a hipster.

#2: I think what's hyperbolic is saying that Union Hall is "in the middle of a block of homes."

Say what you will but at least I identify myself. What's the deal with all of the long winded blind defenses Union Hall coming from "Anonymous" folks? That says something; is there a conflict of interest at play? Are there shills here? I think that's a good bet.

And also let me say this again but clearer for those who see this as a purely black and white issue. I LIKE Union Hall; they get my money and time. But I do think it's location is the cause of the problems and the arguments about the noise are valid. Anyone who is saying that Union Hall is an innocuous venue is in denial. It is noisier than most other bars in the neighborhood.

FWIW, "Anonymous" stopped posting right around 7:00pm-ish. And guess what? Mirman & Showalters Tearing the Veil of Maya comedy show at Union Hall starts at 7:30pm. Nice.

"And that is oftentimes spillover from the bands/shows happening and one crowd of people killing time before the show goes one, or hanging out afterwards."

So you think the venue is the problem, not the bar? By your logic, it appears that you would not have a problem if the venue closed, and the bar remained open. That is what you are saying, right?

i think that everyone complaining about the noise should just sell their place for the huge amount of money its worth, and move to montclair! everyone is moving out of montclair, so now would be a good time to do that.

I would have no problem if Union Hall simply moved it's whole operation down to 4th Avenue or even 3rd Avenue. The place is successful, has good shows, but it's just placed in the wrong part of the Slope for what they do.

I'm not privy to their books, but it doesn't seem they are hurting for cash and are growing. Why not just move the place to a larger space in a part of the Slope that's better suited for a combo bar/venue. Union Hall opened in July 2006. They're barely two years old and very, very successful. I think for the long haul they'd have a better run deeper down Union Street; keeps them in business and keeps the residential part of the Slope happy as well. How else would they grow? Build a second floor to their building on Union.

And please, I really don't want to hear complaints about business owners pouring their heart/soul into a place as if that's the only reason to keep a place open. There are tons of businesses in the Slope and on 5th Avenue that existed for years while the area was crap, and survived and are NOW being priced out. If Union Hall were around for decades, then maybe that argument would be valid. Not now.

Also these complaints about rich neighbors is ridiculous. That part of Union Street is very mixed with some people owning, some renting and all classes of this city represented. It's not Prospect Park West by a long shot, but it's not run down either. It's a normal Brooklyn neighborhood.

You didn't answer my question. You stated above that the venue is in fact the problem. I responded with:

"So you think the venue is the problem, not the bar? By your logic, it appears that you would not have a problem if the venue closed, and the bar remained open. That is what you are saying, right?"

Your rebuttal is ...

I think it might be a good compromise for snooty fascist neighbors to subsidize the cost of moving a business (renovations, lost business, difference in rent, etc.) instead of being able to drive businesses out of their neighborhoods with pitchforks if they are mildly inconvenienced by a businesses present location. I just wish I had thought of this when I was paying $1500 a month to live next to a meat packing plant with every solid waste container truck in the city zooming past my window every ten minutes, 24 hours a day!

While walking by Union Hall this past weekend, I made sure to be aware of the surroundings. The noise from the kids buying ice cream across the street is probably far greater than the noise coming from the bar patrons. Granted, the kids are not screaming at 3am, but the point is that Union St is hardly a residential enclave. The noise on that intersection were almost defeaning: the taxi horns, different bus routes, the foot traffic, etc... 6th ave has very little commercial entities, but Union St does!

I do not think the bar is out of place. Friends of mine live around the corner, next to the 200 5th bar, and the noise from the bar is even louder. Guess what, they expect noise. Duh!

"It is noisier than most other bars in the neighborhood."

Noisier than 200 5th, just around the corner, with it's open windows? I think not. The different is not the bar, it's the neighbors. They are just more NIMBYish. The bars in the neighborhood are the same. My guess is that the complainers are worried about property values. They do not care about people, they care about their money.

it's weird to me that some people would rather have a street be dark and deserted than lit with people around. wall street is spooky at night

as was stated many times, it is completely ridiculus that a few residents should shut down a venue that provides a positive environment for an entire neighborhood. 5th avenue and union street is NOT A SUBURB! Move away if you're looking for something quiet.

Annon 10:43 . . . .
Let me guess, the meat packing plant was there when you moved in and you live in an area zoned for mixed use?

Not exactly the same situation.

But I do give you credit for referring to people you disagree with as fascists. That's the kind of class I expect from an asshole who pays $1500 month to live in an industrial zone.

"Granted, the kids are not screaming at 3am."
Exactly "Posted by Anonymous | May 12, 2008 11:26 AM". Nobody has problems with those daytime/evening street noises. The issue is the late night noise and everyone knows it.

"it's weird to me that some people would rather have a street be dark and deserted than lit with people around. wall street is spooky at night"
You know you're right. Before the summer of 2006 when Union Hall opened I was walking down 5th Avenue and set upon by a pack of wolves. I turned for help and all that surrounded me were burned out husks of buildings, piles of trash and the walking shells of people who used to be humans. My PTSD has prevented me from facing that harsh fact. I also think I saw some ghosts and ghouls. It was a regular spook town in 2005!

"You didn't answer my question."
Dear "Posted by Anonymous | May 12, 2008 9:46 AM" I don't feel I'm obligated to answer specific questions by an anonymous shill on a comment thread when if you actually read what I wrote and comprehended the issue you'd get my answer.

Your question is invalid because it sets up an option that is inherently polarizing and too extreme to be valid. Sorry if I'm not dancing and instead present a reasonable solution that makes everyone happy.

Also, lets point out that many of the homeowners and renters who are complaining have been there for years. Even back when the neighborhood was truly scary. Doesn't matter if they are originally from out of town or not; if they have spent more than 7-8 years in the neighborhood committing to make the neighborhood nicer they have a voice. Why should the local community tolerate something that annoys them that caters mainly to people who have moved here less than a few years back and will most likely move back home (and out of NYC) in the next few years?

Nothing speaks more to NYC newbies bemoaning the loss of a community resource in Union Hall, when the reality is there are TONS of more devoted and dedicated community resources all over Park Slope.

Union Hall is a great bar and venue. Just misplaced. Move it and all is solved and even the supposed "community resource" angle is sated as well.

they should replace UH with a daycare center

jack please address the fact that you live in new york city and not a quiet suburb. Your solution is to move the bar to a desolate area, does that not seem slightly deranged to you? Does it not make sense that a bar should be near their customers? I live on 7th and hear ice cream trucks driving by, should they also be relocated to a deserted street in gowanus? By the way in regards to union halls community appeal, please list another venue with similiar attributes (not including churches of course).

"jack please address the fact that you live in new york city and not a quiet suburb."

I do live in NYC and not in the suburbs and I grew up here. And in my history here—which spans from the 1970s to now—venues were always placed in parts of the city that were less residential. Nobody I know has ever seen a mixed use bar/venue open right next to—and fairly deep into—a block of residential brownstones.

"Your solution is to move the bar to a desolate area, does that not seem slightly deranged to you? Does it not make sense that a bar should be near their customers?"

Not all of Gowanus is desolate. It's just less residential and anyone who can take a 5 minute walk through it knows that. As far as customer service goes, if they moved to 4th or 3rd Avenue I don't think it would be a negative impact. The N/R trains are closer (on 4th Avenue) and more people who come from other parts of the city—which Union Hall mainly caters to—would have an easier walk to the place. It's a win/win scenario.

People talk about how having a venue keeps "eyes on the street", then would it be so bad to have those supposed "eyes" on 4th Avenue or 3rd Avenue where crime is an issue?

"I live on 7th and hear ice cream trucks driving by, should they also be relocated to a deserted street in gowanus?"

I don't hear ice cream trucks at 3:00am; nobody does unless you live in the PJs. And if it's past midnight and you hear ice cream trucks those trucks ain't just selling soft serve my friend. FYI, and it shows your lack of neighborhood knowledge that you even say this. The vast majority of ice cream trucks that roll through the streets of Brooklyn have their home-base right on Carroll Street a bit past 3rd Avenue. Funny how that happens.

"By the way in regards to union halls community appeal, please list another venue with similiar attributes (not including churches of course)."

Union Hall is a unique venue but it is ultimately still a bar/venue. The idea that patrons are elevating the defense of Union Hall as a "community resource" is ridiculous.

If it were a true community resource that the Park Slope residents feel is being attacked, then the community board meeting would have at least ONE person in the neighborhood who isn't a performer, booker or employee defending Union Hall. The reality is otherwise.

Whoops, didn't sign my response above. So here I am. Also, just a slight restating of this:
"I live on 7th and hear ice cream trucks driving by, should they also be relocated to a deserted street in gowanus?"

The ice cream trucks do not have to be "re"-located because they ARE located—and based out of—a lot right on Carroll Street a bit past 3rd Avenue in Gowanus.

This comment thread is great. Because it really highlights the subtle—yet clear—differences between people who like something but can at least acknowledge their issues and delusional hipsters who think a barely 2 year-old venue is somehow a cornerstone of the community and deserves special privilege.

"jack please address the fact that you live in new york city and not a quiet suburb."

"I do live in NYC and not in the suburbs and I grew up here. And in my history here—which spans from the 1970s to now—venues were always placed in parts of the city that were less residential. Nobody I know has ever seen a mixed use bar/venue open right next to—and fairly deep into—a block of residential brownstones."

So you're telling me that bars were "always" placed in parts of the city that were less residential? The venue aspect of union hall is not relevant (why should it matter if people are there for music or there for drinking?).

"Your solution is to move the bar to a desolate area, does that not seem slightly deranged to you? Does it not make sense that a bar should be near their customers?"

"Not all of Gowanus is desolate. It's just less residential and anyone who can take a 5 minute walk through it knows that. As far as customer service goes, if they moved to 4th or 3rd Avenue I don't think it would be a negative impact. The N/R trains are closer (on 4th Avenue) and more people who come from other parts of the city—which Union Hall mainly caters to—would have an easier walk to the place. It's a win/win scenario."

People talk about how having a venue keeps "eyes on the street", then would it be so bad to have those supposed "eyes" on 4th Avenue or 3rd Avenue where crime is an issue?

what statistics do you have that Union Hall caters to "mainly other parts of the city"? Negative impact? Isn't there a cost to relocating? Also, please address that you believe that Union Hall, a PRIVATE business should spend tens of thousands of dollars to relocate to a bad neighborhood to help reduce crime for the city? Does that also not seem slightly deranged to you?

"I live on 7th and hear ice cream trucks driving by, should they also be relocated to a deserted street in gowanus?"

"I don't hear ice cream trucks at 3:00am; nobody does unless you live in the PJs. And if it's past midnight and you hear ice cream trucks those trucks ain't just selling soft serve my friend. FYI, and it shows your lack of neighborhood knowledge that you even say this. The vast majority of ice cream trucks that roll through the streets of Brooklyn have their home-base right on Carroll Street a bit past 3rd Avenue. Funny how that happens."

? ice cream trucks=noise=relocate away from residents=they go out of business

"By the way in regards to union halls community appeal, please list another venue with similiar attributes (not including churches of course)."

"Union Hall is a unique venue but it is ultimately still a bar/venue. The idea that patrons are elevating the defense of Union Hall as a "community resource" is ridiculous.

If it were a true community resource that the Park Slope residents feel is being attacked, then the community board meeting would have at least ONE person in the neighborhood who isn't a performer, booker or employee defending Union Hall. The reality is otherwise."

Its obvious that thousands of people attend Union Hall, that is the reality.
community: a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage.

I'm Black Yall just made my day.

thanks, dude/dudette.

Dear Anonymous, Is this some debate or forensics club project for you? Why can't you identify yourself? Or for that matter contact me personally via e-mail to debate this in private. Who are you?

"So you're telling me that bars were "always" placed in parts of the city that were less residential?"

No I did not. I'm talking about bars/venues. The difference is the crowds ARE larger and the traffic is different from a regular bar. CBGBs, Limelight, Max's Kansas City, Danceteria, they were all based in parts of NYC that had few—if any—residents to complain about late night noise.

"what statistics do you have that Union Hall caters to "mainly other parts of the city"?"

The times I've gone to Union Hall shows—including the comedy show that Mirman and Showalter host—and they ask where people came from, and they say they came from parts of the city that are not Brooklyn.

"Isn't there a cost to relocating?"

Cost of relocating versus loss of business due to community opposition to the way you do business. In the long run, Union Hall would do well to move. Seems by the level of renovations they made to an old plumbing supply store, they own the building. So just sell it.

"Also, please address that you believe that Union Hall, a PRIVATE business should spend tens of thousands of dollars to relocate to a bad neighborhood to help reduce crime for the city?"

That's not my argument at all. My point is that people are defending the patrons of Union Hall as being "eyes on the street". When the fact remains that Union Street and 5th Avenue is not a crime riddled hub. It's just asinine to defend the bar on those merits. It's not like crackhouse will take it's place and destroy the neighborhood if they leave.

"Does that also not seem slightly deranged to you?"

Doesn't it seem deranged that neighbors who live in the neighborhood 24/7 and have invested their lives in their neighborhood would have less of a voice than a bar that barely caters to the direct community? And doesn't it seem deranged that few to none of the people defending Union Hall came from the community but rather had clear connections to Union Hall.

"ice cream trucks=noise=relocate away from residents=they go out of business"

Do you hear them at 3:00am let alone past midnight? That's the difference. The ice cream truck drivers and fleet owners know that.

"Its obvious that thousands of people attend Union Hall, that is the reality. "

There is no specific Union Hall community. It's a bar and a venue. Not a community. And the implication is that it is a resource directly to the Park Slope community. It's not. It's a bar/venue that has an ambitious line-up of talent, but IS GEOGRAPHICALLY IN THE WRONG PLACE.

And if thousands "attend Union Hall" (you make it sound like they go there as if it's a legal obligation) they are not hurting for money and might need to grow and find a new place where they can grow.

Anyone telling me or anyone that moving a successful venue from 5th Avenue to a bigger space 4th or 3rd is a bad idea is delusional. You just can't have an emotional connection to a building that's barely 2 years-old.

Jack, you're spending an awful amount of time playing "devil's advocate", do you have a vested interest in seeing the bar closed or are you just bored? I went to your Flickr account and it says you're 39 and you have photos of toys, so may I assume it's the latter?

You don't know anything about anyone's financials, why would you assume they "aren't hurting for money". Maybe they mortgaged their entire savings to build the place? What about that? Why do you assume to know everything, you are so wrong. Look up the facts in this case, and you'll find that there are zero noise complaints/violations for this bar. Enough said.

man, who is this jack fuck? sounds like a bit of a cunt.

jack, I hope you don't think that your going to some shows is valid for commenting on the statistic of who union hall caters to (if you do think that it might be a good idea to attend a stats class sometime). Also, this is a public forum, not a foresensics club or whatever. Although thats a pretty funny idea. Are you actually mirman? At any rate, you're quite out of your head. Your fantasy city of bar venues in the middle of nowhere and quite bars with nice young republicans drinking their after work scotch is non-existing in nyc. Please do yourself a favor and move. You're approaching the creepiness of harrison ford's character in the mosquito coast. I would never email you for fear of you burning me in your ice machine.

Dear Anonymous, now that you have engaged in an ad-hominem attack while dubiously not identifying yourself, you're showing the high-ground. An anonymous putz defending science fair lectures in the basement of a bar as a "community resource" has no business telling anyone off in any way. Heck, when I'm not a full-time web developer (and this week 2x full-time) I'm a photographer and nowadays building up a product photography portfolio so I cam pimp those skills out. Thus my pics there. What do you do, Mr. Opaque?

What my deal is I'm a native New Yorker, born and raised here, lived elsewhere and came back. As much as I like Union Hall, and enjoy the shows I've seen there the very first thought in my mind after I saw it open was "How the heck are they going to get away with a venue?" None of the complaints now shock me.

And the reason I came here is simple. I've been working on a project. Need to kill some time during the down moments. Saw this. Have an opinion. And I'm sharing it. Like most people. In contrast to many posters in this comment thread I seem to actually know the neighborhood and know what the deal is. Is that what's scaring you? Someone has a reasonable decision and *GASP* actually knows the neighborhood?

Now I'll ask again, why do you defend Union Hall so passionately and are 100% completely blind to the complaints of members of the community?

I might not know the financials, but let's face facts that are clear public record. The owners of Union Hall came out of nowhere, and opened Floyd on Atlantic Avenue. Then pretty shortly after that, Union Hall opens. And now they are scoping out (or did they get it already?) a performance space in Gowanus to begin with. I'm no detective, but I can't think of any bar owners in Brooklyn experiencing that level of growth and expansion in that short amount of time.

The fact is that the only people defending Union Hall at the community board meetings are people with direct connections to Union Hall and nobody else in the neighborhood.

And judging by the anonymous posts here, I'm willing to bet that more than a few of the "Anonymous" folks here are simply Union Hall connected shills.

Contact me privately if you want to continue.

"Your fantasy city of bar venues in the middle of nowhere and quite bars with nice young republicans drinking their after work scotch is non-existing in nyc."

Never talked about "bars in the middle of nowhere"; venues my with bands and gigs that last into the wee hours of the morning my friend. Get the facts straight.

Also the so-called "fantasy" city I know of and lived in is the NYC of the 1970s, 1980s and (partially) 1990s. You know the NYC that most trust-fund hipsters think they are recreating nowadays, but doesn't even come close to the NYC that people actually talk about and remember fondly.

"Please do yourself a favor and move."

Why? Actually I live right near a small coffeeshop that sometimes has gigs in their backyard and am perfectly happy. You know why I—and my neighbors—don't complain? No noise past midnight and they are very aware of their neighbors. And they don't hire bouncers or door guys to bug people. No need to. They just realize they are in the middle of where people live, and limit what they do to respect the neighborhood.

News for you: More bars/cafes work happily with their neighbors than not. If neighbors are complaining about 3:00am noise they should. Any business that is truly a part of the "community" would not have these issues.

And why should any New Yorker move? Most of the whiny hipsters who get on peoples nerves either run out of cash or fail at whatever they are trying to do in 3-4 years and move back home.

The idea that some 2 year-old venue has the right to force it's will on a neighborhood without anyone questioning it is obnoxious and deranged.

hipsters ruin everything

jack, you have an opinion. here is another.

union hall is on a street with buses all night long. it is not in the middle of a residential block. it is at the end of the residences on the block. it is also at the border(not sure exactly where) of the commercial zoning. if it is not actually in the 1961 zoning as a commercial property, a bar/restauraunt is an accepted down use of non-conforming use from the plumbing supply warehouse it seems to have been. they have every right to exist there.

i have attended several events there. most recently melissa ferrick and secret science club.

if noise levels(internal to union hall) are the issue, that can be fixed with soundproofing.

but since there are no violations, it must solely be an exterior patron noise issue. do i want it shut down due to that? that can be fixed by the police giving out summons to the offending patrons. word will spread quickly enough to STFU when exiting. but, i believe the precinct has its hands full with 200 fifth and they consider the issues with union hall to be a joke.

it is, as much as can reasonably be expected, a community resource. name another thing more community oriented on fifth avenue of the caliber they bring. just because it serves beer and pays a large rent(i dont think they own) doesnt make it not a community resource. last i saw liquor could be had regularly at the brooklyn museum and botanic garden.

and as for you lack of support for another venue, the brooklyn lyceum, maybe you should walk on down the block and talk with them if you have brighter ideas.

FYI, there have been noise issues at the lyceum. they have been mitigated by two thing, installing limiters for the offending acts and choosing less noise/rock stuff. instead there is a regular supply of jazz, classical and opera recently.

it may surprise you, that the lyceum has no desire to function primarily as a bar. and it is a very large project underwritten by one person. and as such things will take however long they take.

mismanaged means yo la tengo, klezmatics, fiona apple, several weddings, a batting cage, fashion shows, film festivals, birthday parties, dance parties, crossfitsouthbrooklyn, opera, kafka, and a high end 5 course tasting dinner a few times a month. add a cafe and it is coming along.

maybe there are plenty of venues catering to the sensibilities of former onion writers(not that there is anything wrong with that).

in the next few weeks you can bring your kid to hansel and gretel, dance to ruben toro, attend the brooklyn international film festival, see kate mcgarry or wayne krantz. or you can hike town to greenwood to catch christina courtin on memorial day.

maybe, just maybe, some research can happen prior to spouting off.

but hey this is the new media.

FULL DISCLOSURE, i am the mis-manager you speak of.

Jack, I think some of your points are reasonable. But I think you're probably, & unfortunately wasting your time in this forum trying to have a nuanced & well-reasoned discussion about this. Most of your responses are going to be of the feeble & knee-jerk "people-who-complain-are-old-shitfaces-from-Ohio!" variety.

Personally, I love loud shows. But I also understand that there is sometimes going to be pushback from a community -- and it doesn't have to be exclusively from moneyed grumbling oldsters who want to destroy all youthful good times, etc etc. I wish more people from around the immediate area (aside from performers) had shown support for Union Hall -- it sounds like they didn't. I hope there's a way for the venue to keep doing what it's doing in a locale that satisfies everyone.

I take back some of what I just said, having just read 8:33. There's good discussion to be had here after all. This shit grows more interesting by the minute.

what time is jack going on?

Well, at least the buy who posted at 8:33 is honest about who he is. So kudos for that. That said...

"and as for you lack of support for another venue, the brooklyn lyceum, maybe you should walk on down the block and talk with them if you have brighter ideas."

My lack of support doesn't come from not trying, but actually visiting the Lyceum on more than a few occasions and being baffled by who/what the place is. I understand it's attempting to be a multi-purpose resource for the community, but in all my years of being in NYC I've never come across a more baffling entity.

Seriously. In the 8 years since I moved back to NYC I'm just amazed at how the Lyceum doesn't have a consistent schedule or even voice. How they one day have a coffee shop operating out of there, the next second it's gone and some other food thing is in there. Or for that matter the times I've passed it by and it's just closed.

"it may surprise you, that the lyceum has no desire to function primarily as a bar."

Who said it should be a bar? I think I—and others—would like to know exactly what it does? Is it the overblown playground for a quirky owner?

Alls I am saying is it's a large space that would be perfect for a bar/venue but seems painfully underutilized and falling apart. And it's steps away from the subway.

"and it is a very large project underwritten by one person."

Yes, I have heard. Dot-com millionaire who bought the bathhouse for a song in pre-real-estate-boom NYC and now it's in the state it's in. Scaffolding and all.

What part of the "very large project" includes having a vacant lot next to it with a rotting Philadephia SEPTA trolley filled to the brim with moldy old seat cushions? At least when Park Slope was really falling apart back in the 1980s some folks built community gardens and made something out of nothing. The Lyceum has all that space but willfully chooses to keep it in the state it's in.

PS: Don't blame the messenger. I know folks who live around the corner from the Lyceum who have similar questions/complaints. I truly think that if in some magical world Union Hall could take over the Lyceum most everyone would be very happy.

What's this about there not being anyone at the meeting who was pro Union Hall that wasn't a performer, booker, or employee? That is untrue. There were at least 7 people who spoke eloquently in support of Union Hall who were patrons that live in the immediate neighborhood. And they are not "whiny hipsters." Many UH supporters are lifelong or long-time Park Slope residents.

Also, I am really disturbed by the name-calling that passes for humor in some of these comments.

jack:

8:33 here again.

you can skip the dot com millionaire mumbo jumbo.

one painfully incompetent interviewer for a local newspaper about one off hand comment about how i would prefer office space in the neighborhood for my money instead of the nascent metrotech leads to years of misinformation.

a few points before we get back to union hall.

it seems that the lyceum disappoints you as a venue. here is the rub. the facility is regularly busy with activity or it is being maintained/renovated. mostly on the inside.

the lyceum caters to a much wider swath of new york than bars do. if there have been dozens of weddings, countless birthday parties and classical music/jazz concerts over the years, how does that make it inactive. you seem to be penalizing the facility for being "difficult to comprehend". its called the brooklyn lyceum after all.

stolen fom dictionary.com:

ly·ce·um Audio Help [lahy-see-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. an institution for popular education providing discussions, lectures, concerts, etc.
2. a building for such activities.
3. (initial capital letter) the gymnasium where Aristotle taught, in ancient Athens.
4. a lycée..

it is what it says it is.

quite honestly, if not for the quirky owner/manager it would be a rite-aid or housing by now. if by quirky you mean an owner who is more into programming theater, dance, jazz, opera and film more than having constant battles with bands/djs who think loud is good, then quirky i am.

it seems you are lacking in comprehesion of what it takes to make a successful business that exists whether or not liquor is involved. every fulltime venue you can speak of would close immediately were it not for the income from beer/wine/liquor.

the lyceum will not.

now don't get me wrong, we would be happy to have a beer/wine portion of the busines. as an adjunct. just havent found someone proper to run it.

as for the changing food face of the building. its still there for the morning commuters and the creative types who value good espresso and free wireless. with rehearsals for the various productions and gym activities and jazz most evenings.

would you make the same complaint of a place that has been three restaurants over seven years?

FYI, the first coffee shop was run as an experiment for a year. the second(much more successful) was open for 18 months. then the renovations made it impossible to be open consistently. now the current proprietor is making a good run at it again. the only thing i wish was done different was the incarnation of schnack. no one paid attention to the quirky aspects of the building and it was doomed from the start. that was the last time we let an unexamined "name" do anything.

again, jack, take a look at the 8:33 comment and complain about underused. maybe underadvertised, but you cant buy mindshare in new york. as for locals who don't know what it is, sorry not buying it. walk in and everyone says it is a gym, theater and cafe. nothing complicated. just much larger than most venues and not interested in the problems that union hall is going thru at this point.

so, to close, film, opera, jazz, cross training, elegant meals, cafe, film and music festivals, dance programs, etc. are not enough to get your attention. half page reviews of concerts and dance perfomances in the times don't do it. only another indie rocker venue will break thru. sorry i'll pass. i'd rather have opera and classical and jazz and kafka mostly, with the special indie rocker thrown in than join the ever-expanding warehouse venue brigade.

now back to the topic.

the new york state liquor will not deny the renewal because:
A - no violations on record. i am sure if this coalition of neigbors got the community board to vote against renewal, the sound police have been to union hall. often.
B - community board is advisory.
C - it is validly operating as a commercial business under the existing zoning regulations.
D - they let that new oyster bar get one.

and, jack, this is more about union hall than whether you and i disagree about the lyceum. i invite you to stop by for a beer. tomorrow even. i'll be there all day.

ask for eric.

eric, your posts show you to be the sane and stable person you claim to be. please sign me up for your newsletter.