Posted in hiphop | music on May 9, 2011

Lil B and Tyler the Creator

The Guardian writes...

"On the surface, the attitudes of LA collective Odd Future Wolf Gang Kill Them All and fellow Golden State compadre Lil B are polar opposites. The former trade in an adolescent misanthropy heavily flavoured with violent misogyny and homophobic slurs - to such an extent that even in a genre no stranger to either, the frequency with which Odd Future lean on the shock value of lines such as "Rape a pregnant bitch and tell my friends I had a threesome" and use of the word "faggot" is notable.

On the other hand, Lil B caused a furore - and attracted death threats - last month when he announced his forthcoming album would be titled I'm Gay. Though the former Pack member is straight, it's hardly out-of-character for a rapper who specialises in stream-of-consciousness surrealism. His penchant for blurring gender and sexuality lines is already well known, whether exclaiming "Damn, I'm a princess" mid-freestyle, referring to himself as a "pretty bitch" or throwing down the gauntlet to the biggest female rapper around: "Nicki Minaj, I'm the finest bitch out!" And with songs entitled I'm God, I Am the Ocean and I'm Paris Hilton, I'm Gay is less of a grand statement than it might appear.

Thousands of words have been expended on Odd Future's lyrical content and What It All Means since their rise to prominence over the past year, but only now - as lead member Tyler, the Creator gears up for the release of his second album Goblin - have they been pressed to explain themselves. Which, in recent interviews, Tyler has done in a particularly mealy-mouthed fashion. "I'm not homophobic," he declared to NME last week. "I just think 'faggot' hits and hurts people." It would appear that Tyler's much-vaunted genius does not stretch to making a connection between these statements. Notwithstanding his inability to distinguish between active and cultural homophobia, though, it's important to remember that Odd Future is not a monolith. Frank Ocean, their R&B associate, has penned a song with an explicitly pro-gay marriage slant: "I believe that marriage isn't between a man and woman, but between love and love." And the collective's sound engineer, Syd tha Kyd, is an open lesbian whose response to the controversy is telling: "When I first started really fucking with Odd Future heavy, my dad was like, 'Really? They talk about some crazy shit and as a female, you're slapping a lot of women in the face.' I'm like, 'That's what I do. I slap bitches.'"..." [Guardian]

RELATED: Tyler the Creator was featured heavily in Sunday's NY Times, and "Thurnis Haley Golf Wang" is now up to Part Three. All three videos below...

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Thurnis Haley Golf Wang

GOBLIN: Thurnis Haley Golf Wang Part 2

Thurnis Haley Golf Wang Part 3

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Comments (81)

didn't we already have this conversation a decade ago with Eminem?

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:33 PM

yeah, all these guys suck.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:34 PM

Whats the dealzies w/ p4k not giving it's review of this album today?

R they going to give this shit a 10.0 like Kanye West?

Motherfuckers.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:35 PM

Despite your rave reviews of Odd Future's NYC appearances (and booking members of the collection at Brooklyn Vegan events at SXSW and elsewhere,) I think this is the first ethical discussion of their lyrics I've seen on this site. It might be productive if Brooklyn Vegan addressed this issue forthrightly, the way the poobahs at Pitchfork recently did with Chicago journalist Jim DeRogatis about the moral implications of the Pitchfork Festival booking OFWGKTH as a headliner this year.

Posted by Jim Testa | May 9, 2011 2:36 PM

^^or we could not do any of that I suppose.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:38 PM

@2:33

Yes, but that was to get Eminem to publicly come out. A decade later and he's still closeted.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:39 PM

I do find it a little odd that a hip-hop group that uses homophobic slurs so incessantly gets as much love from the indie crowd as they do. I wonder what kind of critical love Beach Fossils would get if they did the same?

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:40 PM

GAY - and not in the homo sense

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:42 PM

What does frohawk think????

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:45 PM

BUT P4K SAYZ I SHOULD LIKE THEM>!1

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:46 PM

the author clearly doesn't understand that sometimes words ARE words

when tyler says faggot hits and hurts people, he means he's using a word that hits and hurts people. does anyone take his lyrics and say "oh he must be a rapist"? no. to ofwgkta, faggot is no different than bitch than fuck than nigger than you get the fucking point

you can't harp on one word that ofwgkta uses and claim "they are anti- "

that's exactly what they want - they want all the people who take themselves too seriously go get incensed about any one thing they said, which is why they say a million and one things that people can get upset over

if anything, they're overexposing the slurs and curses they use - it has no fangs within the confines of their performance

if anybody thought ofwg was doing anything but fucking with people, you're wrong

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:50 PM

@250 what about cunt and twat?

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:51 PM

abracadaaabraaaaaaaaaa

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:54 PM

Maybe I would find these lyrics funny if I was 14, and maybe I'd find them shocking if I was 70. But since I'm between those two ages I just find them stupid.

They are popular because of the Pitchfork hype. Read Derogatis' interview with Schreiber if you are actually interested:

http://www.wbez.org/blog/jim-derogatis/2011-05-02/pitchfork-odd-future-endorsing-rape-or-showcasing-art-85888

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:56 PM

Fairly weak defense, 2:50. If words are just words, then I guess you won't be too upset if I address you as an ignorant fucking douchebag twat. You're probably a cocksucking faggot and a nigger to boot.
Because remember, I'm just fucking with you and words are just words so, please, no reason to object or get upset.
And can we all quit referring to Tyler as a "genius"? He may be talented, but lets quit applying the genius tag to any artists who are unlikely to pass their SATs.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:58 PM

Why would anyone expect ethical anything to enter into the equation here? The point of the slurs is to get attention, and that's all they want--no more no less. And looks like they're getting it.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 2:58 PM

Pitchfork will give Tyler's album Best New Music and an 8.4. Their review will be filled with violent metaphors of their own. They will say something stupid about the ugliness of the lyrics occasionally bothering them. They will gripe about exactly one uninspired guest spot.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:01 PM

Hip hop has so many issues, homophobia is merely one of them.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:02 PM

I don't really give a shit about their "shocking" lyrics. It's 2k11 and nothing can really be said that is truly shocking anymore. I just don't particularly find Tyler the Creator's flow or production very listenable.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:02 PM

lol @ 3:01. angry and reasonable.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:03 PM

i wish the beastie boys would stop using the f-word so much too

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:03 PM

wacka flacka wacka flacka

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:08 PM

The important question here is this... Do gays prefer their hummus to have a more mushy consistency, or do they prefer it to be thicker?

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:19 PM

kids. i don't know what's wrong with these kids today. kids. who can understand anything they say? why can't they be like we were, perfect in every way? What's the matter with kids today?

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:24 PM

This guy uses one synth to make simple songs.

Shit you hipsters need to get your ears checked.

But I bet this group will be headlining Webster or T5 this fall.

I can't wait for real hip hop to stop by in NY.

Hopefully Rock the Bells will be wonderful again.

Posted by Takk | May 9, 2011 3:27 PM

Odd Future is actually gay?

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:37 PM

T5 was made for this crap.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:52 PM

Anyone still listening to rap or hip hop is gay. There, that settles it.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:52 PM

i feel like these guys are turning a corner for hip hop in terms of homophobia. lil b is straight up shoving the issue into everyone's face while odd future is, in a weird way, showing more open mindedness. OF is going against most of hip-hop's views on homosexuality but also the idea that money and women are the number 1 priority. they take a much more introspective look with their lyrics and explore darker sides of humanity that most other rappers wont touch

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 3:58 PM

You're as cold as ice. You're willing to sacrifice our love. You never take advice. Someday you'll pay the price, I know.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:05 PM

hip hop, WWE and metal. Three things that should never be taken seriously

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:11 PM

"genius"

HA! I certainly hope that at some point, a little levity is brought into the equation, and we can start speaking of these kids as, um, performers or rappers or superstars or whateverthefuck they want to be called. Let's leave the term "genius" for artists who have actually created a substantial body of work that is able to, in time, prove itself a benchmark of some sorts to which others use as a beacon of creativity. Bach, Beethoven, Martin Luther King, Jr., Bob Dylan, Daniel Day Lewis, Jose Saramago, etc.

Tyler?

Get the fuck out of here and turn over your pen because you're not worthy to be a journalist.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:16 PM

Tyler's point of view brings to mind the words of poet George Santayana: “People are usually more firmly convinced that their opinions are precious than that they are true.”

Posted by Crosseyed Sniper | May 9, 2011 4:16 PM

^ i like that.

signed, 4:16

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:22 PM

This shit is about as cutting edge as Insane Clown Posse, with "hardcore rape and killing and offensive language".

Its tongue-in-cheek, not very offensive to anyone who gets pop culture.

But holy shit is the OVERRATED. Fuck, the songs are weak as all hell, this is PROOF that indie culture will gobble up anything P4k pushes. we need to treat this shit like Charlie Sheen and ignore it until it goes away.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:24 PM

haters gon' hate

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:24 PM

"We need to treat this shit like Charlie Sheen and ignore it until it goes away."

And, to quote artist Jenny Holzer, "IGNORING ENEMIES IS THE BEST WAY TO FIGHT."

Posted by Crosseyed Sniper | May 9, 2011 4:27 PM

I found this Jim Derogatis quote to be a bit suggestive in that interview:

"Well, we’ll come back to that. Now, I would argue that Eminem being booked at Lollapalooza is not even worth talking about, because Lollapalooza at this point really doesn’t mean anything except selling tickets. The difference with Pitchfork has always been that the acts that you book have the imprimatur or blessing of the most important music publication today."


Moreso his method of selling that Pitchfork Festival is not about selling tickets (which is really it's true point) and his grovelling at the bellend of Schreiber's cock. The site's emergence over the last decade as the new mainstream music tastemaker (and subsequent capitulation to commercial pop music) culminated in the political scoring of Kanye's new album to be a 10.0. They've shown their hand as desperately wanting to be the source who has "discovered" popular musics next big star.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:32 PM

> We need to treat this shit like Charlie Sheen and ignore it until it goes away."
And, to quote artist Jenny Holzer, "IGNORING ENEMIES IS THE BEST WAY TO FIGHT."

awww. i heart ms. holzer. you just made my day.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:40 PM

sweeeet! well, it took almost 40 posts, but i knew it would happen. sooner or later ... yup, you guessed it, kanye fishsticks crybaby west's name would show up on here.

ps. stick a fork in 'fork; they're finished. (notice the proper use of a semicolon)

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:43 PM

The Pitchfork backlash has been gaining momentum over the past several years. It will not be long before it reaches the "tipping point."

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:46 PM

Thank you 2:56, 2:58 and a few others, this is seriously the most intelligent posts I've seen here in a looping time.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 4:50 PM

all negros are gay. period.

Posted by euro trash | May 9, 2011 4:52 PM

Dear 4:50,

Did you by chance notice the lyrics to Foreigner's classic rock smash "Cold As Ice"? I seriously think you might want to add that to your intlligent postings list.

Thank you.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:00 PM

I'd hit that.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:01 PM

Odd Future is kind of like Big Black was in the 1980's. But are people running around calling Steve Albini a racist, sexist, homophobe (He named his 2nd band Rapeman for God's sake)? NO. So all of you need to shut the fuck up.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:02 PM

At the very least, people did call Steve Albini a misogynist.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:04 PM

Violent misogyny and homophobic slurs are the last bastion for the untalented.

End of story.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:05 PM

derogatis always gets everything wrong

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:20 PM

5:05, don't forget indie rock's favorite: apathy

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:27 PM

Soooooo ... I'm supposed to find his "genius" talent in those golf videos?

Are.
You.
Kidding.
Me?!

I get more humor and intelligence from Gawker.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:46 PM

Read the First Amendment. You can call anyone anything you want. I don't care what you hipsters think, but it is not unrealistic to sing about a group of people, and specifically refer to that group of people by a derogatory name, if the artist believes the activities that group engages in is disgusting and beyond the artist's comprehension.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:59 PM

5:02 and 5:04 are the only people who posted anything relevant in the entire thread. While I definitely side with the former, I am totally willing to shrug shoulders at the latter concept politely, as long as they at least

A) acknowledge a similar need to forsake at least half of the fleetingly hip and/or established and canonical white albums released since 1950, up to and including half of the pre-Yoko John Lennon catalog on the grounds of sexism/homopobia

B) admit that for the bulk of the people complaining alongside of them, this issue isn't a nuanced attempt to fight for equality; rather some latently racist sour grapes horseshit out of lily-white faux-intellectuals who find black america repugnant nearly in total, and leap at strawmen opportunities like this, where they figure they can cloak their xenophobia under the guise of quasi-liberalism.

Politics makes some awfully strange bedfellows...

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 6:00 PM

i would rather not have tyler in bed with me, thank you very much.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 6:10 PM

blacks = hip-hop = homophobia = hate

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 6:10 PM

Intelligent discussion. What a novel idea.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 6:21 PM

@6:00 - im sorry, which john lennon song talked about raping sluts again? was it on help? please please me? i must've missed that early beatles classic.

and im sure black america just LOVES to be associated with violence, materialism, homophobia and misogyny. whos the racist one again?

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 6:34 PM

>blacks = hip-hop = homophobia = hate

wow. out of all the idiotic posts that have come up in this thread today, my friend, yours does take the cake.

so based upon your statement, let me try and get this straight.

willie dixon, son house, elvin jones, albert ayler, john coltrane, charles gayle, charles mingus, eric dolphy, buddy guy, jimi hendrix, anthony braxton, sam rivers ... all those cats are hip-hop artists and they're homophobic?

woah. i had no idea.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 6:34 PM

this is why das racist says they hate it when commenters on brooklyn vegan discuss hip hop

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 6:54 PM

The Well Versed was the first to say it: it "isn't safe to be gay in hip-hop:"
http://99problems.org/2011/04/homophobia-in-hip-hop/

Looks like they were right...

Posted by The League | May 9, 2011 7:17 PM

To quote Nototious B.I.G.-
"Business and family don't mix like two dicks and no chick"

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 7:21 PM

To quote Notorious B.I.G. -
Where dat big sandwich I ordered? Gimmee lots and lots o' gravy!

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 8:24 PM

Odd Future is kind of like Big Black was in the 1980's. But are people running around calling Steve Albini a racist, sexist, homophobe (He named his 2nd band Rapeman for God's sake)? NO. So all of you need to shut the fuck up.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:02 PM

Wrong. Albini didn't mean that literally. It was meant more in the third person. Big Blacks songs were talking about other peoples words and behaviour. Listen to Bad Penny.

It wasn't Peter Sotos thats for sure who makes no bones about it.

As far as Odd Future goes, they have not made any effort to describe how anything they say is cryptic or not to be taken seriously. Why pay them much attention unless your a 15 year old part time skater.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 8:32 PM

"Run for your life" is just a sole example of a John Lennon song that goes toe to toe with "all that scary rap music", whether or not it ever actually says "bitch" or "cunt"

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 10:02 PM

>>>Odd Future is kind of like Big Black was in the 1980's. But are people running around calling Steve Albini a racist, sexist, homophobe (He named his 2nd band Rapeman for God's sake)? NO. So all of you need to shut the fuck up.
Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 5:02 PM
Wrong. Albini didn't mean that literally. It was meant more in the third person. Big Blacks songs were talking about other peoples words and behaviour. Listen to Bad Penny.
It wasn't Peter Sotos thats for sure who makes no bones about it.
As far as Odd Future goes, they have not made any effort to describe how anything they say is cryptic or not to be taken seriously. Why pay them much attention unless your a 15 year old part time skater.

THANK YOU! the misinformed who wrote that original post should also know that kurt cobain was not really asking to be raped when he sang "rape me". there was a meaning beind the message.

as it was said before around in this thread > Violent misogyny and homophobic slurs are the last bastion for the untalented. >

i have yet to hear or see anything they do that's strives to go beyond shock value. and due to the fact that pitchfork has given their almighty blessing to them, well then, looks like we have a new king of the world. kool thing. wonder what bag of tricks they'll pull from when they stop prosing lyrics about gang rapping women.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 10:30 PM

Well I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or I won't know where I am

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

Well you know that I'm a wicked guy
And I was born with a jealous mind
And I can't spend my whole life
Trying just to make you toe the line

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

Let this be a sermon
I mean everything I've said
Baby, I'm determined
And I'd rather see you dead

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or you won't know where I am

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl
Na, na, na
Na, na, na
Na, na, na
Na, na, n

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 10:39 PM

awww, looks like SOMEBODY (key cute little baby face voice) learned the cut & paste function.

and now, for your final trick, why don't you master a new url address to look at.

waste. of. oxygen.

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 10:53 PM

"Its tongue-in-cheek, not very offensive to anyone who gets pop culture."

ok, well what about those who don't "get" it?

Stop living in a pop culture bubble and begin to see that whatever you put out in the world thats negative, homophobic,(Ironic- aka, the use of the name "Das Racist")etc, it goes beyond humor.

Think what words you wish to promote, in art and moreso in basic living.


(*already going to get attacked, so may as well say it- hummus)

Posted by Anonymous | May 9, 2011 11:56 PM

********************************************************************

ok, let's take a break here, kids.

let's start talking numbers. as in, what's the fuckin' 'fork going to give this lil' baby of theirs? i'm going with 8.7.

thoughts?

Posted by Anonymous | May 10, 2011 1:07 AM

6OLDEN 6OLFIN 6OBLIN! TRIP 6 CREW! LITTER LIFE!

Posted by Anonymous | May 10, 2011 1:34 AM

This is just a marketing gimmick by Supreme. For Japanese tourists only.

Posted by Anonymous | May 10, 2011 8:14 AM

@2:58 yesterday,

no, i'm not worried about the words you used to describe me. it's actually an extremely weak counter to the point. you just sound really fucking upset about tyler and ofwgkta, which IS the point. they've accomplished their mission by getting people incensed over their over-the-top supposed hate. and i never referred to tyler as a genius, for sure.

signed,

2:50 yesterday

Posted by Anonymous | May 10, 2011 11:49 AM

ALL OF YOUR MOTHERS WEAR ARMY BOOTS!!!

Posted by Anonymous | May 10, 2011 1:38 PM

I think the more important question here is do hip-hop artists suffer from Hummusphobia? Do rappers fear the chickpea? Do they worry about the lovely tan spread may get on their microphones and interfear with their rhymes getting muffled from the innate soundproofing abilities that may cloud their MCing?

Posted by Anonymous | May 10, 2011 1:52 PM

Who cares what words they use, their music sucks faggot, asshole, dick, pregnant bitches be raping everybody up in the nigga! Please stop giving these tools press...

Posted by Anonymous | May 10, 2011 3:48 PM

^ We need a Fred Phelps for peaople like you.

Posted by Anonymous | May 10, 2011 3:53 PM

That's right, I meant "peaople"!

Posted by Anonymous | May 10, 2011 3:56 PM

Tegan and Sara ar gay

Posted by Anonymous | May 14, 2011 4:27 PM

You're all faggots.

Posted by Anonymous | May 14, 2011 4:37 PM

siriousilly, why people gotta be so stupid about the arguments they wanna make. Just because you don't like destructive lyrics doesn't mean you have to feel threatened by them. Satire is an important part of culture and it creates a way to express irony. As homophobic or racist or sexist or as whatever the fuck you want the fact is that it's never going to be interesting for people to listen or pay attention to people with realistic and rational ideals. These kids are just echoing the fact the only way to make a real point or gain notoriety in a gentrified and interconnected culture is to become a spectacle and push people buttons. Personally I'm sick of seeing how politically correct people want everything to be.

Posted by chambees | November 5, 2011 3:27 PM

I dont think it is.

Posted by Jamie | March 11, 2014 7:52 PM

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