Entries tagged with: Cursive
photo: Beach Slang at Gigawatts Fest in August (more by Carly Hoskins)
Beach Slang are touring like crazy this year and next, and they've just added even more dates. They're doing a short co-headlining run with Tim Kasher, frontman of their past tourmates Cursive, and Field Mouse. It hits Long Island, Brooklyn and Philly.
BrooklynVegan is proud to present the Brooklyn show, which happens December 17 at Knitting Factory. Tickets are on BV presale now, the password is BVSLANG. General on-sale starts Monday (9/28) at noon.
The next day, Beach Slang open Taking Back Sunday's annual holiday show in NJ. Updated dates are listed below.
photos by Amanda Hatfield, words by Andrew Sacher
Cursive / Beach Slang @ Saint Vitus - 3/12/15
Following two sold-out Bowery Ballroom shows, Cursive played the third and final NYC show of their Ugly Organ tour at Saint Vitus last night (3/12), which was also sold out. Rather than playing it straight through, Cursive opted to play a set that spans their last 15 years as a band but works in every Ugly Organ song and two outtakes from that era (which both appear on the new expanded reissue). And making these shows extra special, former Cursive member Gretta Cohn who played cello on The Ugly Organ was back in the fold for all three NYC shows.
After opening with "Sink to the Beat" and "Big Bang," Ugly Organ intro "The Ugly Organist" began playing over the PA and Tim Kasher met the crowd's cheers with a knowing grin and saying "It's that time..." into the mic, before the band went into the raucous "Some Red Handed Sleight of Hand." Immediately the crowd at Vitus broke out into a huge pit, making the effect that The Ugly Organ still has on Cursive fans very clear. These are songs that people connected to and obsessed over, but another thing that makes this revisitation so successful is how interesting these songs still sound 12 years later. For better or for worse, Cursive often get called an emo band, but there's a lot more to their shows than fans yelling along to their favorite lyrics. Watching Cursive deliver the intricacies, unconventional (for rock) chord progressions, and the unique string and horn arrangements of The Ugly Organ last night, it felt like something that would have won me over even if I had no personal attachment to it.
Providing direct support to Cursive were their tourmates Beach Slang, who Tim Kasher called "the best band in America" from the stage. Even opening a sold-out show for a much bigger band, Beach Slang manage to fill the room with enough people who can sing along to them loud enough for everyone to hear. James Snyder ditched his mic more times than I've ever seen him do before to let the crowd take over, and it never once failed. In addition to playing almost everything off their two great 2014 EPs, Beach Slang played a few new tracks, presumably off their upcoming debut LP on Polyvinyl, and they all sounded just as killer as the older songs. They also honored their influences with a couple covers, The Replacements' "Can't Hardly Wait" and The Psychedelic Furs' "Love My Way."
The show began with a duo set from John Congleton and the NIghty Nite. You may know John best as the producer for a ton of great bands including Swans, St. Vincent and The Mountain Goats, the latter of which his own music sounded most similar to.
More pictures of all three bands, including pics of Cursive and Beach Slang's setlists, below...
photos by Greg Cristman
"just saw someone get stabbed at a Cursive show so that's a first" - Hilary Pollack
Cursive @ Bowery Ballroom - 3/10/2015
"It's nice to be playing with Gretta again after all these years," Cursive frontman Tim Kasher announced in a rare bit of onstage banter last night at New York's Bowery Ballroom. He was, of course, referring to former band member Gretta Cohn, the cellist responsible for the sweeping dramatics that dominate the band's seminal 2003 album, The Ugly Organ, which saw its reissue late last year and finds Cursive on a brief tour in support of it.In support of the recently reissued The Ugly Organ, Cursive are on tour playing the whole thing, and the tour currently has them in NYC where they're in the midst of a three-show run. So far they've played Bowery Ballroom on Tuesday (3/10) and again last night (3/11), and they wrap things up at Saint Vitus tonight (3/12). All three are/were sold out.
To the diehard fans, the return of Cohn is significant. To promote The Ugly Organ's re-release, a strings player has been accompanying the Omaha band on select dates, but the New York shows specifically heralded the return of the original cellist. It was a bit of nostalgia as welcome as the songs themselves, as the set played heavily off The Ugly Organ but touched on the group's full catalog. [Village Voice]
We caught the first night at Bowery, and as the review above points out, the NYC shows have Cursive joined by Gretta Cohn, the cellist who was in Cursive during the Ugly Organ era. They're choosing not to play the album in order, but they did play every song from it, as well as two outtakes from that era that appear as bonus tracks on the reissue, "Excerpts From Various Notes Strewn Around the Bedroom of April Connolly, Feb. 24, 1997" (originally on their 8 Teeth to Eat You split with Eastern Youth) and "Nonsense" (originally on Saddle Creek 50). For the rest of the set, they played at least one song from the rest of their '00s and '10s albums, including "The Martr," "Dorothy at Forty," "Sink to the Beat" and more. Plus, they did a seemingly-unplanned partial cover of Temple of the Dog's "Hunger Strike," for which an audience member came on stage to help Tim out with the lyrics (video below).
Opening the show was one of 2014's best new bands and recent Polyvinyl signees Beach Slang, as well as The Nighty Nite, the band of producer John Congleton, who's been behind the boards for recent albums by Angel Olsen, Cloud Nothings, Swans, St. Vincent and more. Pictures of all three bands are in this post.
Though the show was great, there was an unfortunate side to the night too. Someone got stabbed after the show. Animal New York writes, "An NYPD spokesperson confirmed to ANIMAL that a 23-year-old man was taken into custody late last night in front of the Bowery Ballroom, located at 6 Delancey Street on the Lower East Side. He had stabbed a 31-year-old man in the rear right thigh during a dispute. The weapon was recovered at the scene."
More pictures, the "Hunger Strike" video, and Cursive's setlist from night 1, below...
photo: Beach Slang at BV-RBSS at Baby's in January (more by Ryan Muir)
Beach Slang have been talking about the full-length followup to their two great 2014 EPs, and it's now been announced that they've signed to Polyvinyl Records for it, making them labelmates with American Football, Japandroids, of Montreal, and more. Label founder Matt Lunsford said:
I was blown away by both of the Beach Slang 7"s. When we got to know the band, we were delighted that Polyvinyl and Beach Slang are such natural complements--sharing a hard working, DIY aesthetic and true love for what we do. We could not be more excited to be working together!And Beach Slang singer James Snyder added, "I cannot stop floating. Thanks for making all of this happen. And, fuck, I do mean that." Congrats guys! Album info is still TBA, but in the meantime you can revisit their EPs and their new song from the 6-way split with Modern Baseball and other bands, below.
They also begin their tour with Cursive tonight. It includes NYC stops at Bowery Ballroom on March 10 & 11, and the recently-added Saint Vitus show on March 12. All three are sold out, but you can still get tickets to the nearby NJ and Long Island shows on that tour. Beach Slang return to the NYC-area for Asbury Park's Skate & Surf in May.
Updated dates are listed, with those song streams, below...
As discussed, Cursive have a tour coming up in support of the reissue of The Ugly Organ, which will pull heavily from that album's era. The tour already includes NYC shows on March 10 & 11 at Bowery Ballroom (night 1 sold out, night 2 still on sale), plus nearby Long Island and Absury Park shows, and they've now added a smaller NYC show happening March 12 at Saint Vitus. Tickets for the new date go on sale at noon on Friday (1/30).
The whole tour will be with a cellist, and it's been revealed that in NYC it will be Gretta Cohn, who played all the cello on The Ugly Organ. Beach Slang (who put out a new song today) and John Congleton and the Nighty Nite open both Bowery Ballroom shows, but no opener has been announced for Saint Vitus yet.
Updated dates are listed below...
photo: Beach Slang at BV-CMJ 2014 (more by Mimi Hong)
Cursive already announced that they're touring with a cellist in support of the reissue of 2003's great cello-filled The Ugly Organ, and pulling heavily from that era for the setlist, and now that tour just got even more exciting. One of 2014's best new bands, Beach Slang, will be opening on most dates, including both NYC shows. Those happen March 10 & 11 at Bowery Ballroom, and also include John Congleton's band The Nighty Nite. (John is fresh off a great 2014, producing albums for Angel Olsen, Cloud Nothings, Swans, St. Vincent and more.) Tickets for both NYC shows are still available.
Since we last spoke, that tour also added nearby dates at NJ's Asbury Lanes (3/8) and Long Island's Revolution Bar (3/13). Tickets for both are on sale.
Meanwhile, you can catch Beach Slang in NYC much sooner when they play the BrooklynVegan-curated Red Bull Sound Select show with Hop Along, Aye Nako and Ryley Walker at Baby's All Right on Tuesday (1/13). That's $3 at the door with RSVP or $10 without. No advance sales, and all door money is going to be donated to CancerCare.
Updated dates are listed, with the tour flyer, below...
by Andrew Sacher
Tim Kasher in Brooklyn in 2012 (more by Ryan Muir)
Old Point Light Records' "Fourward" series is a series of compilation albums that benefit the American Cancer Society and Johns Hopkins Myositis Center. The third installment is out now and features rare and previously-unreleased material from Cursive frontman Tim Kasher, Hot Water Music frontman Chuck Ragan, Travis Dopp of Small Brown Bike, Gordon Withers of Office of Future Plans, Dischord supergroup Alarms & Controls, ex-Indian Summer duo Ghost Trees and more.
UPDATE: As a commenter pointed out, Chuck Ragan is actually on volume two.
You can stream it on Spotify and purchase it on iTunes, and a free download of Tim Kasher's contribution, "This Again," is premiering in this post. It's a pretty stripped down song as far as Tim Kasher contributions go, but even with minimal layering his unmistakable theatricality is all over it. Check it out.
Meanwhile, Cursive are reissuing The Ugly Organ and playing with a cellist on their upcoming tour that's set to pull heavily from the Ugly Organ era. That tour hits NYC on March 10 & 11 at Bowery Ballroom. Tickets for those shows are still available. Tim's other band The Good Life are touring too but not hitting NYC.
Stream Tim's new track and download it for free below...
Cursive at House of Vans in 2012 (more by Ryan Muir)
Cursive have yet to announce a followup to 2012's I Am Gemini, but they'll be celebrating the past with a reissue of 2003's excellent cello-fueled The Ugly Organ on November 24 via longtime label home Saddle Creek. They'll also be touring in 2015 and are promising a set with material from all of their albums, but that pulls heavily from The Ugly Organ. And they'll be joined by a cellist for the Ugly Organ-era songs. That tour includes NYC shows happening on March 10 & 11 at Bowery Ballroom. Tickets for those shows go on sale Friday (10/17) at noon.
Earlier this year, Cursive spinoff The White Octave reissued an album too.
UPDATE: The full tour was announced. All dates are listed, with the reissue tracklist and a couple Ugly Organ videos, below...
As mentioned, The White Octave -- the band formed by original Cursive member Steve Pederson after leaving that band but before forming Criteria -- are reissuing their debut LP, 2000's Style No. 6312, on September 16 via Broken Circles (it originally came out on Deep Elm). We recently posted the video for "Looking Past Sky," which was left off the original LP and included on Emo Diaries instead but will be on the reissue, and now we've got a stream of the full remastered reissue premiering in this post.
Check it out below...
by Andrew Sacher
The White Octave was the short-lived band formed by original Cursive member Steve Pederson after leaving that band in 1998, and before he formed Criteria (who like Cursive, are/were on Saddle Creek). Their debut LP, 2000's Style No. 6312 which originally came out on Deep Elm, is getting a reissue this year via Broken Circles (Bloom, Of Sinking Ships) on September 16 (pre-order). It's being remastered by Bob Weston, who originally recorded the album, and the reissue will include the track "Looking Past Sky," which was cut from the 2000 release of the LP and was featured on the fifth installment of Deep Elm's Emo Diaries series. Ahead of the reissue, that song was given video treatment compiled from footage of their 2001 tour shot by Scott Behr. The video premieres in this post and can be watched below.
The band's only live date at the moment is Hopscotch Festival. Video below...
Tim Kasher w/ Cursive at House of Vans in 2012 (more by Ryan Muir)
Cursive frontman Tim Kasher will release his second solo album, Adult Film, on October 8 via Saddle Creek. The album features contributions from Nate Kinsella (Birthmark, Joan of Arc) and Laura Stevenson. You can check out the album art and tracklist below.
Tim will also be touring the US and Canada around the time of the album's release with collaborator Laura Stevenson (whose own new album, Wheel, came out earlier this year via Don Giovanni) supporting him at the shows. The tour rolls into Brooklyn on November 6 at The Bell House. Tickets for that show are on sale now.
All tour dates are listed, along with the album art and tracklist, below...
Tim Kasher w/ Cursive at House of Vans in August (more by Ryan Muir)
Cursive/The Good Life frontman Tim Kasher, who also has a solo LP to his name, has announced a few Northeast US dates that he'll be playing this March. Two of those dates are in the NYC area, including Knitting Factory Brooklyn on March 14 and Maxwell's on March 15. Tickets for the Knitting Factory show and the Maxwell's show are on sale now.
A list of all dates and the video for "Cold Love" from his solo LP, The Game of Monogamy, are below...
photos by Debi Del Grande
Atlas Sound / Dinosaur Jr. / crowd
LA's FYF Fest wrapped up on Sunday (9/2) after kicking off one day earlier. Sunday's portion of the fest gave us sets by Yeasayer, Dinosaur Jr., American Nightmare, Atlas Sound, Wild Nothing, Desaparecidos (Conor Oberst's old band who reformed this year), Paul Banks, Ceremony, Cursive, and many more.
Pictures of day 1 are HERE and more pics of day 2 are below.
Baroness at Terminal 5 in May (more by Joe McCabe)
Earlier this week, we posted an update from Baroness showing that things were looking upwards for the band. Unfortunately though, with two members having broken vertebrae and frontman John Baizely having a broken arm and leg, it doesn't come as much of a surprise that Baroness have in fact cancelled some of their upcoming North American tour dates, including their NYC show at House of Vans and LA's FYF Fest. They will not be replaced on the House of Vans lineup, which happens on August 29 and now just includes Turbonegro, Doomriders, and Nightbirds. This is a bummer but it makes sense that the band takes the time they need to recover, and we wish them a speedy and successful recovery!
Meanwhile, FYF Fest, which Wild Flag also dropped off of, recently expanded its lineup. It now features The Faint (who just announced they'll be reissuing Danse Macabre and touring the album), Glass Candy, King Tuff, and newcomers The Orwells. Tickets for FYF Fest are still available. The updated lineup and flier are below.
photos by Ryan Muir
Cursive/Titus/Crowd, House of Vans 8/16/2012
It was another packed, sweaty show at House of Vans on Thursday night (8/16), with old school emo vets Cursive, beloved New Jersians TItus Andronicus and long-running indie rockers Love as Laughter. Pictures from their set are in this post. Joyce Manor opened the show and then sped off for a second show in Brooklyn at Acheron and you can read about that and see their HoV pics here.
Cursive will soon be on the road with Minus the Bear for a tour that hits NYC in September. Titus, meanwhile, are putting the finishing touches on their new album, Local Business, which is out October 23 on XL. Sam Jayne of Love as Laughter will DJ between sets at Sonny & the Sunsets and Magic Trick's show at Glasslands on Saturday (8/18).
Photos from last night's House of Vans show are below.
Titus Andronicus at BV-SXSW 2012 (more by Amanda Hatfield)
Titus Andronicus, whose ever-changing lineup is now Patrick Stickles (singer/songwriter/guitarist), Eric Harm (drums), Julian Veronesi (bass), Liam Betson (guitar) and Adam Reich (guitar), will release their third album, Local Business, on October 23 via XL. A press release reads:
While the first two albums were elaborate concoctions, Local Business is of the earth. Titus Andronicus the studious recording project and Titus Andronicus the raucous touring machine are no longer two distinct beings; there is only Titus Andronicus, rock and roll band. This is to say, it was recorded primarily live with precious few overdubs, with an elite squad of musicians.This should come as good news for those who thought The Monitor went too far away from the band's punk roots. Meanwhile, they did bring in Owen Pallett to contribute violin and still have song titles like, "Titus Andronicus VS. The Absurd Universe (3rd Round KO)."
We heard one of the songs, "Upon Viewing Oregon's Landscape With The Flood Of Detritus," back in February when it premiered on WFMU. That track was since released on a split 7" with Diarrhea Planet and you can listen to it HERE. Some recent live videos of other new songs and the Local Business tracklist are below.
Titus will support the new album with a tour which hasn't been announced yet, but before then they'll play a free NYC show at House of Vans on August 16 with Cursive (who also have an upcoming tour with Minus the Bear), Love As Laughter, and Joyce Manor (who also play Acheron that same night [8/16]). RSVP is required.
The only other announced date for Titus at the moment is Fun Fun Fun Fest. Videos and tracklist are below.
by Andrew Sacher
Minus the Bear at Webster Hall in 2010 more by Matthew Eisman)
Back in the early 2000's, just before "emo" became a bad word, there was actually a bit of crossover between the emo and indie rock scenes. Some of those bands even faired well for a bit on indie rock machine Pitchfork, who awarded Cursive's Domestica an 8.0 and Minus the Bear's This Is What I Know About Being Gigantic EP an 8.6. Fans of that era are in luck, because Minus the Bear and Cursive just announced a tour together with support from Caspian, which hits the NYC area for shows on September 23 at Starland Ballroom in Sayreville, NJ and September 29 at Best Buy Theater. Tickets for both NYC area shows go on sale Friday (7/20) at noon with an AmEx presale starting Wednesday (7/18) at 10 AM. All dates are listed below.
For Minus the Bear, the tour will be in support of their new album, Infinity Overhead, which is due out August 28 via Dangerbird. It's their second album for the label, following 2010's underrated OMNI. Check out a teaser video for the album which contains a minute-long song clip below.
Caspian will also be releasing a new album this year and it will be the first album for the previously instrumental post rockers to feature vocals. The album's called Waking Season and it's due out on their new home, Triple Crown Records. It was produced by Matt Bayles, who has also worked extensively with Minus the Bear. You can watch an album trailer below.
Cursive will also be in NYC even sooner for free show at House of Vans on August 16 with Titus Andronicus, Love As Laughter, and Joyce Manor.
After the leg with Caspian, MTB and Cursive head out on a run with Girl In A Coma. A list of all dates and those videos are below...
After teasing folks with a few names here and there -- like Run DMC most recently -- Austin's annual Fun Fun Fun Fest (Nov 2 - 4) has revealed it's full line-up, including Public Image Ltd, De La Soul, Superchunk, Santigold, Refused, X peforming Los Angeles, and lots, lots more. 3-day passes go on sale at 10AM CST.
Full FFF Fest lineup is below.
King Khan at The Bell House, Nov. 2011 (more by Keith Marlowe)
The full House of Vans 2012 free show schedule is up. The Greenpoint/Williamsburg space has already housed The Rapture and Tanlines this year, and we knew about the 7/12 show with H20, 7 Seconds and Tournament, but here's the rest of the summer's line-up, brought to you by the folks at FYF and the sneaker people:
July 12: H20, 7 Seconds, TournamentThe parties are free with RSVP (which hasn't been posted yet).
July 26: King Khan & The Shrines, Nicky Da B, The Everymen
Aug 2: Washed Out, Chairlift, Lemonade
Aug 16: Cursive, Titus Andronicus, Love As Laughter, Joyce Maynor
Aug 29: Turbonegro, Baroness, Doomriders, Nightbirds
One thing you notice not on this list is Quicksand which was one of the big rumors of this year's VANS schedule. That either means that Quicksand will play somewhere else, or like the upcoming free Dum Dum Girls/Widowspeak show, it won't be part of this series of "House Parties."
The July 26 show is one of many local dates from NJ's Everymen who are also playing Pianos this Friday, July 6 as part of the CBGB Festival. (Advance tickets are on sale.) After the House of Vans show, the band will go on a short East Coast tour while putting the finishing touches on their new album New Jersey Hardcore which will come out in October on Killing Horse Records. All Everymen dates are below.
FYF Fest. September 1st and 2nd, 2012WOW.
At the LA State Historic Park, Los Angeles, CA
Tickets are $77 and go on sale Friday June 22nd.
American Nightmare has two shows coming up at Webster Hall.
Full FYF lineup, in alphabetical order, below...
photos by Kurt Christensen
Cursive @ Bowery Ballroom
Cursive is on tour now with Cymbals Eat Guitars and Conduits in support of their new album I Am Gemini (out now on Saddle Creek). That tour brought them a sold out show at Bowery Ballroom last night (4/3) for their first of two shows at the NYC venue. Their 19-song set only consisted of about half of the new album, and otherwise mixed in an even amount of material dating back to 2000's Domestica. Cursive, Cymbals Eat Guitars, and Conduits will return to Bowery Ballroom tonight (4/4) for another sold out show (which we just gave out 2 tickets to on Facebook). More pictures, videos, and setlist from last night's show are below.
by Andrew Sacher
DOWNLOAD: Cymbals Eat Guitars - "Keep Me Waiting" (Hooray for Earth Remix) (MP3)
Cursive at BV-SXSW in 2009 (more by Leia Jospe)
Cursive will release their seventh full length album, I Am Gemini, on February 21 via Saddle Creek. The album was recorded with Matt Bayles, and according to a press release, tells the story of "Cassius and Pollock, twin brothers separated at birth. One good and one evil, their unexpected reunion in a house that is not a home ignites a classic struggle for the soul, played out with a cast of supporting characters that includes a chorus of angels and devils, and twin sisters conjoined at the head." The press release also notes that it's the first album frontman Tim Kasher wrote with the complete story in mind, with the lyrics having been written in order from song 1 through song 13. The album artwork and tracklist is below.
Rolling Stone premiered an exclusive download for album track, "The Sun and Moon," yesterday (1/2). You can download it at RS's site and stream it below. Like the material on 2009's Mama, I'm Swollen, the song hearkens back to the riff heavy work of Cursive's earlier stuff, before they began experimenting with dynamic string and horn arrangements.
Cursive is going on tour in support of the new album in the upcoming months. They've already announced a run in February and March with Ume, Mount Moriah, and Virgin Islands. Now they've revealed a second run with Cymbals Eat Guitars and Conduits that includes NYC shows on April 3 and 4 at Bowery Ballroom. Tickets go on sale Friday (1/6) at noon with an AmEx presale starting Wednesday (1/4) at noon.
Speaking of Cymbals Eat Guitars, their song, "Keep Me Waiting," was just remixed by Hooray For Earth. Download that remix at the top of this post and stream it below.
All dates, streams, album art and tracklist below...
Tim Kasher at The Rock Shop in 2010 (more by Amanda Hatfield)
Tim Kasher (Cursive/The Good Life) announced a tour and tour EP Bigamy: More Songs From The Monogamy Sessions. The EP will only be available on the tour and at the Saddle Creek webstore. The 7-track EP features some material recorded during the Monogamy sessions but was largely recorded separately this Spring.
The headlining tour kicks off in late August and runs through September. It hits NYC on August 24 at Mercury Lounge. Tickets go on sale Friday (6/17) at noon. No openers have been announced yet.
Meanwhile, Cursive play Sled Island Festival in Calgary, AB June 24-25. They also play the MAHA Music Festival on August 13 in Omaha, NE with Guided By Voices, J Mascis, Matisyahu, The Reverend Horton Heat, and others. Tickets are on sale.
All dates below...
photos by Amanda Hatfield
I was expecting [Tim] Kasher to perform acoustic sans backup, but he played with a full band, complete with trumpet and violin--a very appropriate touch considering the often-dramatic content of his songs.
Musically the band sounded good, but it was Kasher's lyrics and unflinching delivery that got everyone's attention. If Raymond Carver played the guitar and were still alive his songs would sound something like Kasher's. When Kasher played "Strays", he ruefully sang, "Writers are selfish, Writers are Egotists; I'm afraid I'm as bad as it gets. I keep forgetting to censor the truth, that's why I better write some kind of love song for you."
Kasher lightened things up when he sang, "There Must be Something I've Lost" - A humorous but realistic take on becoming an adult. Kasher shouted, "I want to have sex with all my old girlfriends again. I swear it's just the familiarity I miss...Aw fuck it-it's just typical male conquest. You know, the world don't revolve around your prick. Just ask your old girlfriends." -[Death & Taxes]
Tim Kasher (Cursive/The Good Life) celebrated the release of his new LP The Game of Monogamy by playing The Rock Shop on 10/6 with support from Charles Bissell of the Wrens. Kasher also played a show at Other Music one day earlier and is on tour.
More pictures, including shots of the setlists (including most of Kasher's), below...
Tim Kasher (frontman of Cursive and The Good Life) added an in-store performance at Other Music on October 5, the same day his debut solo LP The Game of Monogamy is released. This performance is part of his tour which also includes the previously mentioned show at The Rock Shop on October 6.
The video for his new single 'Cold Love' as well as updated tour dates, including an October run with Minus the Bear (whose tour continues into December), are below...