Entries tagged with: Vision of Disorder
As mentioned, the CBGB Music & Film Festival is back for a third year, going down October 8 - 12 at venues across NYC. The initial lineup for this year was just announced and includes Jane's Addiction, Devo, Billy Idol, Macy Gray, The Muffs, Upset, Duff McKagan, and more.
The film portion of the CBGB Fest includes the world premiere of Hardcore Devo Live!, Carter Family / Johnny Cash documentary The Winding Stream and a 30th Anniversary screening of This Is Spinal Tap (which the New York Film Fest is showing too).
Ticket info and other details are still TBA but you can check out initial lineups for both music and film below....
by Ian Chainey
Agnostic Front at Power of the Riff, 2012 (more by Greg Cristman)
After saving This is Hardcore Fest by filling in, Agnostic Front sit atop the first round of announced bands at East Coast Tsunami Fest 2014. The initial lineup posted on Stereokiller not only includes the NYHCers, but bands such as Ignite, Sick of it All, Cro-Mags, and. . . Obituary. Makes sense when you think about it. Anyway, the fest takes place on September 26 through September 28 at Reverb in Reading, Pennsylvania. Ticket information will be announced soon. Full lineup below.
Agnostic Front and many other hardcore bands, including Bad Brains, Gorilla Biscuits, Bold, Born Against, Judge, Misfits, Murphy's Law, Quicksand, Rorschach, Sheer Terror, Sick of It All, Youth of Today and still more, have also been interviewed for the new book NYHC: New York Hardcore 1980-1990 that's coming out on Bazillion Points in November. The Tony Rettman-authored oral history takes on the formative decade and apparently goes pretty deep. According to Bazillion:
Tony Rettman's ambitious oral history captures ten years of struggle, including the scene's regional rivalries with D.C. and Boston, the birth of moshing, the clash and coming to terms of hardcore and heavy metal, the straightedge movement, and the unlikely influence of Krishna consciousness.That thing must be longer than John Joseph's resume.
Full East Coast Tsunami Fest lineup, along with classic Agnostic Front (plus Sick of it All and Gorilla Biscuits) live footage, below...
Inter Arma at Invisible Oranges SXSW 2013 day party (more by Greg Cristman)
After part of the docket was revealed last week, Scion Rock Fest have announced the entirety of their 2013 lineup which happens in Memphis Tennessee on June 1. Testament and Melvins claim the top slots, while additional bands announced for the fest are Municipal Waste, Whitechapel, The Obsessed (!), Corrosion of Conformity, The Casualties, Negative Approach, Pallbearer, Six Feet Under, Impaled, Vision of Disorder, Royal Thunder, Vektor, Arsis, A Life Once Lost, Touché Amoré, Code Orange Kids, The Gates of Slumber, Hot Lunch, Rotting Out, The Shrine, Ice Dragon, Call of the Void (who recently played NYC), Subrosa, Gigan, Anciients, Dirty Streets, Inter Arma, Complete Failure, Indian Handcrafts and Noisem.
SRF is free but RSVP (which opens on April 10) is required.
In related news, Inter Arma, who recently played the Invisible Oranges Day Party at The Jr (pictures HERE), have been announced, along with Sannhet, as support for the NYC date of the Intronaut tour, set for Saint Vitus on June 15. Tickets are on sale.
If you missed it, pictures from the official Invisible Oranges SXSW night showcase are available HERE, featuring shots of Pallbearer, John Baizley with Mel from Royal Thunder and Bruce Lamont, Mutilation Rites, Full of Hell, KEN Mode and Homewrecker.
Check out a video from Inter Arma's daytime set below...
Scion Rock Fest has released a partial lineup of their 2013 edition, set to happen in Memphis, Tennessee on June 1. As with previous years, the festival will go down in a single day across multiple venues. Look for appearances from Melvins, Municipal Waste, The Casualties, Pallbearer, Six Feet Under, Impaled, Vision of Disorder, Arsis, A Life Once Lost, Code Orange Kids, The Shrine, Ice Dragon, Subrosa, Anciients, Indian Handcrafts and Noisem. More bands and details are on the way.
photos by Kurt Christensen
Vision of Disorder @ MHOW, 11/24/2012
While Gaza and co were tearing down Acheron Vision of Disorder played a Hurricane Sandy relief benefit with Primitive Weapons, Yuppicide and Swarm of Arrows at Music Hall of Williamsburg that same night (11/24). Pictures from the show are below.
If you missed Primitive Weapons, you can still catch the band this weekend at East River Bar on 12/1 and for a good cause:
Come party with us for a good cause. Cheer for FC St.Pauli when we show our favorite soccer team kicking some serious ass on the big screen! Get rowdy with the "Knob Kurve". Enjoy some of the freshest rock'n'roll that Brooklyn has to offer. Buy some raffle tickets and bid on all sorts of cool stuff. All proceeds to benefit clean drinking water in developing countries. Bring your own BBQ fodder if you are an arctic grill master!Sounds like a fun night of grilling, booze and riffs. Pictures from the MHoW show are below.
Doors 5pm, $Free$, 21+ to drink.
6PM SOCCER MAYHEM ON THE BIG SCREEN
>>>>FC St.Pauli vs 1. FC Kaiserslautern
>>>>>Primitive Weapons (halftime show)
9PM(ish) FACE MELTING LIVE MUSIC
>>>> Call of the Wild
Vision of Disorder at Webster Hall, July 2012 (more by Kurt Christensen)
"Our hearts go out to those severely affected by this tragic incident. Being from Long Island, Hurricane Sandy has (quite literally) hit home for us. The music scene in Long Island, the New York metro area and New Jersey have been so supportive to Vision of Disorder over the years that we felt donating the proceeds from the Brooklyn show was a no-brainer. We are proud to announce that the opening acts (Primitive Weapons, Yuppicide, Swarm of Arrows) have also agreed to donate their proceeds. We hope that this small gesture can add to the ongoing efforts and help rebuild these traumatized areas. We look forward to seeing you all on November 24 to support this cause." -[Tim Williams, Vision of Disorder]Kudos to the bands for turning their MHoW show on 11/24 into "Picking up Change: Hardcore for Hurricane Relief," with all the bands donating their money to the Red Cross. Mosh against Sandy by buying tickets HERE.
As you may remember, Primitve Weapons recently played CMJ as part of Show No Mercy (pictures). VOD's last outing in NYC was at the infamous Sick of it All/Cro-Mags show that ended with Harley Flanagan's arrest.
So far no other dates have been scheduled for VOD in the US, though the band will hit Australia with Ghost in the new year. All tour dates are below.
In other hardcore-ish news, Texas is The Reason, who reunited for Rev25 (pics) and also played Saint Vitus (pics), will also play the Chicago Revelation show in early January. In addition, look for the band to play a few extended weekends through late March. No new NYC date, but they will play Philadelphia on February 16 and tickets are still available.
All tour dates are listed below.
by Fred Pessaro // BBG
Agnostic Front at CBGBs in 2006 (more here)
East Coast Tsunami is returning to Reading, PA, this time shifting from June to September and adding names like Sick of It All, Biohazard, Cro-mags, D.R.I., H20, Agnostic Front (who play a special set at Power of The Riff East), Vision of Disorder, and twenty-three others to their ranks. It all goes down on 9/29 and 9/30 at Reverb and tickets are on sale in 2-day and single day increments. Full lineup is below, as well as a listing of all VIsion of Disorder tour dates, including Music Hall of Williamsburg on November 24th.
In other festival news, the 11th edition of Gainesville, FL's The Fest has expanded with some notable additions including Propagandhi, reunions of Latterman and Grade, Mean Jeans, Ceremony, Such Gold, DNF, Fight Amp, Hull, Mountain Man, Wild Tribe, and much much more. The current lineup is below.
All tour dates and lineups are listed below.
photos by Kurt Christensen
John Joseph addresses the crowd @ Webster Hall Friday night - 7/6/12 (video below)
Before things took a turn for the worse and got all stabby, Webster Hall hosted performances from Vision of Disorder, Sai-Nam and Absolution as part of a five band bill that would have also included Sick of It All and Cro-Mags if the CBGB Festival Friday show didn't end early. Pictures from the relatively peaceful opening to the show are in this post.
As discussed, things got ugly when ex-Cro-Mags bassist Harley Flanagan, who is known for not being happy that Cro-Mags continue without him, allegedly assaulted current Cro-Mags members with a hunting knife before the Cro-Mags set. Harley has been charged with assault and criminal possession of a weapon.
John Joseph and his version of Cro-Mags (that was scheduled to play Webster Hall but instead got cut) issued the following statement:
WE... as a band are truly sorry for the way it all turned out in every regard even the ex-member who's family is now effected by his choices. Our prayers go out to them as well as Mike C., and the others who were hurt, but it was 'his' choice to come to our concert with a hunting knife, standing by our dressing door. Who knows what his actual intent was, obviously he wasn't there with it to cut bread for a peace offering as he was heard saying outside he was putting an end to us playing without him. Let's move on now & stop the trash-talking. Keep that PMA - that's what we are all about.PMA indeed.
That's a picture of John telling the Webster Hall crowd that the show is over on Friday. You can watch video of it below.
The NY Times talked to John too:
John Joseph, the band's lead singer, said that Mr. Flanagan had been at odds with other members of the Cro-Mags since he left the band in 2000 and had not been permitted to rejoin.The NY Post points out:
"This dude has been a negative thorn in the side of this band forever," Mr. Joseph said. "I hope he gets what's coming to him."
Few bands were as energetic as the Cro-Mags during the heyday of the Lower East Side hard-core scene in the mid- to late 1980s. Their first record, "The Age of Quarrel," featured an illustration of a mushroom cloud on the cover and driving songs with shouted lyrics about existential fear and the limits of anarchism.
In many ways the songs were a reflection of the world as seen by Mr. Flanagan, who left school at an early age and began hanging out on the decaying streets of the Lower East Side, where rent was cheap, abandoned buildings proliferated and the drug trade flourished.
The hard-core scene gradually become less visible, said Clayton Patterson, a photographer on the Lower East Side who has documented many of the bands, but it has experienced a revival in recent years.
The crowd was waiting for the Cro-Mags on Friday night when Mr. Flanagan darted from the dressing room while yelling something that onlookers could not make out, according to a spectator, Elie Perler, 30.
Joseph warned CBGB Festival organizers that Flanagan wasn't wanted, but he wound up obtaining a press pass.For those people that "don't believe the hype", somehow have faith that this is one big government conspiracy, or that it actually wasn't Harley Flanagan that attacked two in the VIP area at "Weber Hall", you can contribute to the Free Harley Flanagan fund. 119 days to go on this crowdsourcing effort and they are currently at 0.988% towards their $50k goal. Good luck with that one.
"Get somebody on the door who knows what he looks like," Joseph said he warned. "They didn't take that threat seriously."
If you missed Vision of Disorder, you can catch them in NYC again at Music Hall of Williamsburg on November 24th, tickets go on AMEX presale at noon on Wednesday (7/11) and regular sale on Friday.
More pictures of a peaceful Webster Hall before the storm, and video of John Joseph addressing the crowd, below.
Now we really know what's going on. The CBGB Festival is happening July 5 - 8 at some 30 venues across the city, with over 300 bands participating, including the previously mentioned free Guided by Voices, Pains of Being Pure at Heart, and Cloud Nothings show at Summerstage (which now also includes The War on Drugs), the The Baseball Project and Craig Finn at City Winery, L.A. Guns at Highline, the Cro Mags, Sick of it All, Vision of Disorder, Absolution, and Sal Naim show at Webster Hall, and D Generation's Bowery Electric show. Newly added artists include Rocket from the Tombs, MEN, PS I Love You, Reggie Watts, Gary Lucas, Weekend, and more TBA. The full list of currently confirmed artists is below.
It's also a film festival with both new and classic rock films/docs, including the world premiere of The Rise and Fall of The Clash, plus American Hardcore, Color Me Obsessed: A Film About The Replacements, The Dead Boys - Live at CBGB/OMFUG 1977, I Am Trying to Break Your Heart, Kurt Cobain About a Son, The Sacred Triangle: Bowie, Iggy & Lou 1971-1973 and more.
In addition, they've added a CMJ/SXSW-like music industry conference with panels/workshops concerning the music industry, independent artists, and a CBGB "Tales from the Club" panel each day. All conferences take place at the Sunshine Cinema and East Village Cinema. The festival also closes with the "distilled spirits fest" at Beekman Beer Garden on July 8.
There are variety of badges available too, from music and film showcase badges to one that get you into everything (or potentially at least...badges don't guarantee admission). The press release we got claims badges have been on sale since May 7 but this is the first we've heard about it. Regardless, early bird prices on music showcase badges is $69 and runs through May 31. It jumps to $79 if you buy before July 4 and walk-up badges once the fest starts are $89. Film fest badges are $99/$159/$219 for earlybird/regular/walk-up. You can also get a music conference badge which gains you entry to the showcases, workshops, and panels, and a music/film combo badge which gains you entry to all of that plus the film screenings. Full details on the vast array of CBGB Festival badge options are at their website. What this means to people who already bought tickets to individual shows already but want a badge too, we're not sure.
A list of all confirmed bands, films, conferences, and participating venues is below.
Lou with Refused at Terminal 5 (more by BBG)
The four-day festival is scheduled to begin on July 5 and will showcase about 300 rock bands. Concerts will take place at around 30 places, from large stages like Central Park Summerstage and Webster Hall to small clubs like the Trash Bar in Williamsburg and the Living Room on the Lower East Side...A few other confirmed shows as part of the festival have emerged too. Sick of It All will join Vision of Disorder, Cro-Mags, Absolution and Sai Nam for a show at Webster Hall on July 6th. Tickets are on sale.
The festival will also stage a free concert in Central Park with Guided by Voices, the Pains of Being Pure at Heart and Cloud Nothings [on July 7]. A few veteran rockers have agreed to appear: David Johansen, a former member of the New York Dolls, has committed to do a show, as has the Baseball Project, the supergroup formed by Peter Buck of R.E.M. and Steve Wynn of Dream Syndicate. -[NY Times]
D Generation will headline Bowery Electric on July 7th with ROMANS, Brass Knuckle Evangelists and The Bamboo Kids. Tickets are on sale.
Stay tuned for more (including the full lineup announcement).
photos by Konstantin Sergeyev
Hard Skin at Bruar Falls on 10/25/10
There are few punk/hardcore shows on the way in the next few weeks, but we'd be remiss without mentioning the surprise Hard Skin show that took place at Bruar Falls on 10/25/10. The show was one of two NYC shows for the comedic UK Oi band, as they also played Europa with Forgetters on Friday, 10/22 with The Rival Mob.
"Fat Bob had mentioned at the forgetters show on Friday that Hard Skin were playing on Monday night before they skipped back across the pond. Given the the rarity of their shows and the proximity to Drew's place, it seemed prudent to make it across the water to Colonial Williamsburg....Pictures from the Bruar Falls show adorn this post. Forgetters will play Bruar Falls TONIGHT (11/2) with Younger Lovers and Little Victory.
...The Hard Skin boys took the stage around the 11 o'clock hour and stirred the room up with a whole lot of Oi! Bruar may be a little small to contain such friskiness, but it was a pretty polite crowd despite the large drunk punk contingent and truth be told, the JS-NYC/ab rock Voltron was no paragon of sobriety by this point either. I had a good time, even given the curious tire deflations I returned to find on my iron steed when we got outside. Luckily, they were deflated and not punctured and Drew had a pump, so the good guys lived to ride another day. Good times all around. Not sure where/if HS are maintaining the web presence in this day and age, but you would do well to spend your weak American dollar on some of their swag and bring them back. Set to Googling, fresh-cut, and remember Hard Skin are good clean-cut fun." [Jaded Scenester]
Madball will play The Studio at Webster Hall on 12/13 with Lionheart, Bitter End as part of a string of dates for the trio. Incendiary will join them as local support. Ticket info is forthcoming, but full tour dates are below. Madball recently dropped their new LP Empire and parted ways with drummer Jay Weinberg (son of Max Weinberg).
Easy Action, featuring John Brannon of Negative Approach, will team up with The Men to play The Acheron on 11/15. The all ages show kicks off at 8PM. Easy Action tour dates are below.
The Queers will play Mercury Lounge on Jan 22nd. Tickets are on sale. The show is part of a short string of East Coast dates in 2011 that also includes Maxwell's one day before NYC; additional dates are below.
In a show dubbed "Brooklyn's Finest" (though BBG would beg to differ), Life of Agony will team up with Biohazard and Vision of Disorder to play Best Buy Theater on 12/16. Tickets are on sale.
And finally, LA's Youth Brigade (not the DC one with releases on Dischord) will play Mercury Lounge on 11/14. The show will be proceeded by a documentary on BYO Records and the band. Tickets are on sale.
All tour dates and more pictures of Hard Skin at Bruar Falls are below...
photos by Kurt Christensen, words by BBG
Vision of Disorder
Vision of Disorder re-re-reunited to play Gramercy on Friday, 8/20, alongside Incendiary, Reign Supreme, and The Judas Syndrome. Still no firm date for the upcoming VOD LP, but the band has announced that they hope to have it out this year.
VOD has no future tour dates on their upcoming sked, but Incendiary and The Judas Syndrome do. Incendiary will play Baltimore with Cro-Mags in addition to dates in NJ and Boston, while The Judas Syndrome will support Despised Icon, Misery Index, and Revocation at Europa on 9/11 (tickets).
Incendiary tour dates and tons more pics from Irving are below...
Vision of Disorder at Irving Plaza (photo by Keith Wick)
More hardcore reunions!
Reunited Long Island metalcore-rs Vision of Disorder have a new show scheduled at Gramercy Theater on August 20th. Tickets are on sale, but no word on who will support the reactivated team. VOD is currently working on new material that will appear on an upcoming LP.
Yuppicide brought their ska-influenced hardcore to their first show in twelve years at Black & Blue Bowl, and the band has added a second NYC show at Santos on July 10th with Primitive Weapons and Old Yorke. Tickets are on sale. The show is one of two US dates currently scheduled, as the band is also scheduled to play El N Gee Club in New London, CT on 7/31 after their appearance at the Full Force Festival in Germany on 7/3.
NYC's Inside Out will play their first show in 21 years at Santos Party House with Razorblade Handgrenade, No Tolerance, Vigilant Hotel and Activator on August 14th (tickets). NYC's Inside Out is not to be confused with the west coast version, which featured Zach of Rage Against The Machine and Vic of 108/Burn.
Finally, Grey Area will reunite for a show at Cake Shop on June 25th with Static Radio and The Revelling. Tickets are on sale (for the show that IS at Cake Shop - not Europa like the ticket link says). For the unfamiliar, the band features members of Warzone, Kill Your Idols, Black Train Jack, and Token Entry melding their sound into a more melodic approach to NYHC that yielded two LPs. At one point the band featured bassist Syd Butler (of Les Savy Fav), though it is not known who will fill in on bass at Cake Shop. It's one of two upcoming shows or the band. The other is in Philly. Flyer below.
Don't forget the forthcoming Deathcycle show (at 538 Johnson on 7/31, and a second TBA) as well as 1.6 Band, who originally reformed in 2009 and will play Cake Shop (not The Studio at Webster Hall) on June 27th with Substratus and Dump Body.
On a different note, Sick of It All played Gramercy on 6/11 (Friday). How was it?
Back in April we posted an interview with Jonah Matranga who is putting out a new Far album, and playing Mercury Lounge solo on May 21st (tickets). Since then he added a NJ show at Maxwell's. That happens to be TONIGHT (5/19). Tickets are still available.
Poison the Well is co-headlining every date on a "10 For $10 summer tour" - ten bands for $10. Bands will vary at each stop.
Freddy Cricien of Madball said, "This 10 for 10 tour concept is way overdue in my opinion. I'm glad and thankful, that the people involved, stepped up to actually make something like this happen! Our genre (Hardcore) in the states, is in a "strange" place right now. There is somewhat of a lack of appreciation for this "sub-culture". A lot of people want to say they know certain bands, or are affiliated with this underground scene,etc,etc... Because it gives them some credibility, it sounds cool! Well, this is everyone's chance to re-introduce themselves, and actually get involved with a very unique and authentic genre/movement. It's also a chance for all of us, the bands, to show our stuff as well!"Tickets are now on pre-sale for the tour that stops at Starland Ballroom (NJ) and Terminal 5 (NYC). NYC (tickets on sale Friday) gets Madball, Poison the Well, Terror, Vision, War of Ages, The Ghost Inside, Death Before Dishonor, Trapped Under Ice, Crime in Stereo, and This is Hell. NJ (tickets on sale Friday) has VOD (Vision and Vision of Disorder on the same bill) instead of Madball.
Tickets also recently went on sale for H2O, Sick of it All, Agnostic Front, and many other shows. All 10 for $10 dates below...
by Black Bubblegum
You should see his Vampire Weekend tattoo!
The Black And Blue Bowl (aka Superbowl of Hardcore) is back at Studio B in 2009, with a lineup heavy on reunited and classic hardcore bands and headlined by the recently reunited Earth Crisis who, for my money, peaked with the line "A FIRESTORM TO PURIFYYYYYYYYYYYY!". Beware, similar to the previous statement, the following announcement CONTAINS LOTS OF CAPITAL LETTERING:
by Black Bubblegum
Brooklyn's own Life of Agony have dropped off a gift just in time for the holidays... a pair of NYC area shows! Tickets are on sale for Dec 13th at Starland Ballroom in Sayreville, NJ (here) and Dec 14th at the The Blender Theater in NYC (here). The Blender show will keep it family, with Spoiler NYC (featuring Alan Robert of L.O.A.) and My Mortality (featuring Sal Abruscato of L.O.A./Type O Negative) serving as appetizers. Keith Caputo (vocals) has been busy on the solo tip as well... currently promoting his latest record, A Fondness for Hometown Scars and the tour-only release Dass-Berdache, a collection of rarities and demos.
Speaking of NY hardcore-like/metal-like bands, Vision of Disorder have announced that in addition to that previously mentioned Dead In New York live DVD and their lone show at Irving Plaza (tickets are still available), the band is currently working on NEW material for a summer/ fall 2009 release and on the hunt for a new label.
LOA's Keith Caputo recently played a now rare solo show at Mercury Lounge in NYC. Although he played no LOA material, Alan Robert did join him on stage for a second. A video interview with Alan and Joey Z, and those dates below...
by Black Bubblegum
Agnostic Front @ Knitting Factory, 8/21/08 (hardcoreshutterbug)
Hardcore is always screaming about unity, and in times like these, it's admirable that those aren't empty threats. A gang of NYHC bands have teamed up for a benefit for two of their own, Dr. Tom and Walter "Monsta" Ryan of Subzero and Merauder who has liver cancer. NYHC legends Sick Of It All, Cro-Mags (jam), Murphy's Law, Maximum Penalty, Subzero, Jasta (aka Jamey Jasta of Hatebreed) and many others are playing a benefit show at Studio B (we'll let you know if that venue changes) on 9/27. Tickets are on sale, check out the flyer down below. If you can't make the show, there are two other ways you can help..... buy yourself a CD and/or sign up for a free website.
What the hell is a Cro-Mags (jam) anyway? No, it isn't Trey Anastasio playing a 25 minute version of "We Gotta Know" nor is it the latest concoction from Smuckers..... Cro-Mags (jam) is the throat of Village Voice cover star John Joseph with a crew of "No-Mags" providing the soundtrack (aka John is the only original member in the group. The other original members have toured as just "Cro-Mags") . The jam band is also on board for this year's Fun Fun Fun Fest along with ALL (who recently reunited), Dead Milkmen (who also reunited), Flipper, Adolescents, Integrity, Young Widows, Trash Talk, Walter Schriefels, Bad Brains, Bouncing Souls and many many many others.
Bouncing Souls AND Sick Of It All are also playing a NYC show, together, at Terminal 5, with Grey Area. Tickets are still available.
In possibly-related, possibly-NYHC news, Vision Of Disorder will put up their dukes with Indecision, Overcast, and Nassau Chainsaw on Nov 16th at Irving Plaza. Who is Nassau Chainsaw, you ask? NC is a collective of musicians from two very different NYHC bands, Neck and Locked in a Vacancy. Tim Williams (VOD), Sal Lococo (Sworn Enemy), and Mike D(Car Bomb) all lend vocals to their album. VOD's Dead in NY DVD is due on November 11th on Koch. Tickets go on sale 8/30 at noon. VOD's last reunion show was at the Crazy Donkey in Farmingdale. This will be their first NYC show in a while.
As we mentioned a couple weeks ago, the original line-up of Biohazard is playing Irving Plaza on Oct 5th. Tickets are on sale. The band recently did the same thing at L'Amours (which is now in Staten Island).
Subzero recently opened up for Body Count.
Check out a bunch of related videos and the benefit flyer below....
by Black Bubblegum
The band is readying a DVD for release which was shot at their 2006 reunion shows in Levittown, NY. Video trailer and reunion flyer below....